Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

[cbl1]

Stamets/Culber - the actors playing them (who are gay) and GLAAD whom the writers consulted with would all disagree on the assessment that they just "killed the gays". I believe there is still a lot more to the story to come. And the writers didn't shy away from it being a love story for them so I don't understand how it can just be portrayed as something so simple as they wanted to kill them off (when we all know that is certainly not the case). I happen to have seen a great number of heterosexuals killed so far in the series as well.

 

[Krandor]

They're not surprises. They're plot developments/mysteries where clues are provided so that viewers who are paying attention can guess/anticipate them. It's not surprising that a BBS with many fans paying attention to everything will figure them out. The alternative is to not provide the clues and just surprise people. There can be some value in outright surprises but it can also get old when there is not ground work.

YMMV in terms of how you like their approach. I think the reveals have been excellent. Even though we collectively guessed some of these developments, I felt there were still good payoffs.

and by doing it this way now you can go back and watch the firsrt half of the season and go "ah, so what is why Lorca ddi that?"

 

[Mr Awe]

Does anyone complaining about this show being predictable have any certain predictions for how this season will end?

Yes! Let's see these predictions in advance from those people!

 

[Nyotarules]

If Lorca has been in the Prime universe for a decade or so, then he's going to be a mixture of Prime and Mirror atoms and, by this point, mostly, even overwhelmingly, Prime matter. A quantum signature probably wouldn't pick him out as odd in the Prime universe, but it would pick him out in odd in the Mirror universe because he's now mostly made of Prime matter.

Its does not work that way, no one ever checked his quantum signature, just like people do not go around every day checking your fingerprints.

 

[Donker]

This closely sums it up for me. It's somewhat entertaining Sci-Fi, but in many ways seems Trek in name only.

One of my jokes about the show is, you know how all the alt-right were calling it "SJW Trek"? I say "yeah that's exactly the problem, it's it doesn't have enough SJW"

And that literally is the problem, there is absolutely no humanism in Star Trek, no exploring of philosophical, social or political themes. It's a generic action sci-fi show trying to ape BSG with a Star Trek skin.

I guess my point it - they actually fueled the speculation on Lorca by having spoiled the fact that mirror universe was even going to be in this series. They weren't hiding any of this. I still don't think it spoils the ultimate reveal as they purposely made it into a "is he" or "isn't he" moment.

Same goes for Ash - they wanted people to see hints that this was going to go bad. It made it more believable when actually then seen happen on screen.

The writers also telegraphed this stuff way too obviously because frankly, they want stupid people to feel smart when they figure this stuff out. "I knew he was Mirror Universe, I guessed it, I'm the smartest!" is literally the stuff I'm seeing all over social media at the moment lol.

Honestly the bigger twist would have honestly been if Burnham came to the conclusion that he is Mirror Universe, and then Lorca's reply to the guard/captain guy he's knocked out is "I have no idea who your sister is" showing it all to be a massive red herring that even Burnham fell for. Lorca is SO MUCH more interesting as a PTSD riddled morally grey War veteran than he is a Mirror Universe character.

But that would involve writing, gosh, an actual twist.

I also LOVE how literally episode after episode building up Voq/Tyler, it literally gets solved in what, 3 minutes of screen time since the reveal? Absolutely hilarious. What hacks.

 

[Nyotarules]

It has nothing to do with MU Lorca being “deceptive” and everything to do with him being a sexual predator. And that’s been made very clear, so you insisting otherwise is just incorrect.

You always take the words of homicidal dictators as the gospel truth?

 

[cbl1]

If it were Voyager, Tyler would have just shown up on bridge the next episode and they would have all forgotten he was a Klingon.

or they would have had the doctor in the last 5 seconds of the same episode say "Ash will be fine I have some nanobots working on it"

 

[Mr Awe]

I'm not complaining. However I have already predicted prior to the break that we will end up at the end of the STD series in the prime universe. (The one with hairy Klingons) and no knowledge of improbability spore drive)

The series already started in the prime universe. We're just not sure when they'll return. I'm guess end of the season -- but there will some big reveal/twist as the cliffhanger for next season.

 

[cbl1]

I can say - they have setup all this and a couple big predictions of course came true .... but I have no idea what's going to happen next.

 

[The Habs Fan]

I actively hated this episode, in a way I haven't with any of the previous installments. Though not because of the MU Lorca twist which everyone else seems to be up in arms about -- that didn't bother me (yet, we'll see where they go with it).

The big problem: I've said from the beginning the only thing that could make me give up on this show is if they did some awful "kill your gays" thing with Stamets/Culber. After that neck-snapping a few weeks back, I saw all those interviews that Culber would be back, those quotes from the showrunner about how he's openly gay and they are NOT doing the "kill your gays" trope, and the audience should just be patient. I thought to myself "I hope they're not imagining that just tacking on a scene where they get to make out one last time in spore space makes this OK -- they get that they have to ACTUALLY bring him back, right? They must understand that just allowing them to say goodbye does nothing to lessen the tacky grossness of killing this character that way, don't they?"

I'm still holding out (fading) hope of an actual resurrection for Culber, but this felt pretty final. If this is it... what a complete and disgusting betrayal of everything they claimed they wanted to accomplish with this couple.

I am such a hardcore ride-or-die Trek fan. Outside of this issue, I can't imagine how bad Discovery would have to be for me to even contemplate stopping. But to have waited for decades to see gay characters in Star Trek, to finally be introduced to such an awesome couple, and if this is the way that relationship ends after only a handful of episode... betrayal is the only word for it. Betrayal of the audience and betrayal of the essential Star Trek values that is the only thru-line I need this franchise to have.

I've tried to defend these writers and view their decisions in the most favorable light, but if this is it for Culber, they really are hacks who have no idea what they're doing.

I don't see killing Culber as a "kill your gays" situation. I actually think he will be back. But you might find it interesting that not only is the creator of the show, Bryan Fuller, gay, but so is co-showrunner Aaron Harberts. Also, Jordan Nardino, the writer of this episode, is gay. With that amount of diversity on staff, I doubt that killing Culber belongs in the "kill your gays" discussion.

 

[guyute03]

After this Klingon War / Mirror Universe season I am honestly at a loss as to what next season will be, besides the writers saying there may be more classic Trek standalones. Giving this a lot of thought, can't figure it out. Where are they going with all of this?

 

[Mr Awe]

Ned was the example setter. You were supposed to be surprised, because he was the archetypical "fantasy good guy whose heart of gold will save the day". It's everything after Ned that shouldn't surprise you.

Discovery isn't subverting tropes and types to that level. I'm not sure Trek fans would allow them to. I doubt any franchise with a decent fanbase would. That's the luxury of creating a new IP: you can take advantage of expectations without being held to them.

No, Ned's death was predictable in advance. He made naive decisions, played to his weaknesses (see warnings about the previous time he had been to KL), etc, all in a dangerous environment. I thought it was excellent writing that all fit together.

 

[cultcross]

Did it really establish that Prime Lorca survived?

No. We know the Buran was destroyed, and Starfleet believe 'Lorca' survived, that's about it. You can read that either way regarding Prime Lorca's survival.

My theory is Mirror Lorca is the one who either destroyed the Buran blaiming the Klingons, or led the Klingons to destroy it. Or hell Mirror Lorca heard of the destruction of the Buran while hiding out somewhere and saw it as an opportunity to do something.

Either way, Prime Lorca is dead.

There's one way out that has been written into the show - recall the story of the Buran - Mirror!Lorca claimed he destroyed it to stop them being captured by Klingons. That leaves the story possibility that Prime!Lorca actually was, and that he still exists on some Klingon prison ship/planet (chance for a Rura Penthe fanservice ep!).

This episode also 100% confirmed imo that the Mirror Universe is Rome, with the Emperor having a Roman Imperial name and the Palace ship having a Roman god name.

I wouldn't say that '100% confirms' it, as the Romulans also have this sort of faux Roman trappings, and other empires through history have borrowed iconography and ideas from classical ones. But I agree that it tends to point that way, especially the line about shedding the idea of equality 'millennia ago'.

I actively hated this episode, in a way I haven't with any of the previous installments. Though not because of the MU Lorca twist which everyone else seems to be up in arms about -- that didn't bother me (yet, we'll see where they go with it).

The big problem: I've said from the beginning the only thing that could make me give up on this show is if they did some awful "kill your gays" thing with Stamets/Culber. After that neck-snapping a few weeks back, I saw all those interviews that Culber would be back, those quotes from the showrunner about how he's openly gay and they are NOT doing the "kill your gays" trope, and the audience should just be patient. I thought to myself "I hope they're not imagining that just tacking on a scene where they get to make out one last time in spore space makes this OK -- they get that they have to ACTUALLY bring him back, right? They must understand that just allowing them to say goodbye does nothing to lessen the tacky grossness of killing this character that way, don't they?"

I'm still holding out (fading) hope of an actual resurrection for Culber, but this felt pretty final. If this is it... what a complete and disgusting betrayal of everything they claimed they wanted to accomplish with this couple.

I am such a hardcore ride-or-die Trek fan. Outside of this issue, I can't imagine how bad Discovery would have to be for me to even contemplate stopping. But to have waited for decades to see gay characters in Star Trek, to finally be introduced to such an awesome couple, and if this is the way that relationship ends after only a handful of episode... betrayal is the only word for it. Betrayal of the audience and betrayal of the essential Star Trek values that is the only thru-line I need this franchise to have.

I've tried to defend these writers and view their decisions in the most favorable light, but if this is it for Culber, they really are hacks who have no idea what they're doing.

I expressed myself at some length on this after last week's ep so I won't repeat it all - I had discharged my rage on this issue in my '5' rating for that ep - but I agree, and I would actually go slightly further - I don't feel a resurrection story, if one is coming, undoes the trope and arguably makes it even more unnecessary. They could have done 'Hugh gets lost in the mycellium network' or 'Hugh gets captured by the Empire' just as easily if they are planing to have him back. Personally, I think killing off the gay couple a handful of episodes into their story was short sighted in the extreme and very disappointing.

 

[Cyrus]

Michelle Yeoh is awful

Disagree strongly, I thought she was great. In the After Trek show Jonathan Frakes said she was spectacular.

 

[ClintDagger]

I gave it an 8. Really enjoyed it, but a 37 minute run time is disappointing and hopefully not something we see again. I also thought the Stamets/Culber stuff was rushed and forced. We needed to see more of their relationship than just a handful of episodes to make that really mean something. Would love to have seen that in a S4 or S5 after years of seeing their bond grow.

A few things: first, the fate of PU Lorca is probably undecided and entirely up to whether Isaacs wants to return either full time or in guest spots. I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about it since it’s probably dictated by creative license at this point.

As for Culber, it appears that he’s truly dead and not “coming back to life” so to speak. And I think that’s a good thing personally. I like the character and actor but to me deaths should mean something. But, I like the idea of the character not being a regular but perhaps popping in as a recurring guest star that serves as Stamets’ conscience whom he visits and continues his relationship with in the network.

 

[Krandor]

After this Klingon War / Mirror Universe season I am honestly at a loss as to what next season will be, besides the writers saying there may be more classic Trek standalones. Giving this a lot of thought, can't figure it out. Where are they going with all of this?

To start with they will have to likely deal with the ramifications of all that happened this season like the end of the war. Some things like Lorca, Stamets, and Ash may be wrapped up this season but some of that could also extend into next season. If you are the federation how do you deal with Ash and Lorca? Does the matter of how the war ended start to set us more on a course toward the more optimistic future of TOS?

 

[Nyotarules]

You mean that german art student with that ridiculous mustache who started a whole rebellion with the aim of creating a free and democratic homeland for the Jews? Poor dumb bastard. The Empire wiped him out and six million of his followers for good measure. There's a lesson in there somewhere, but I doubt future generations will learn it...

My point is he never came to power. No German empire, no British empire, no Prussian empire, no Russian empire therefore no World war I as we know it since The Roman/Italians were running things since Caesar's era.
It appears the Mirror Earth had a one world state long before the Prime Earth did and their Starfleet was more diverse than the goody two shoes one.

 

[Krandor]

No, Ned's death was predictable in advance. He made naive decisions, played to his weaknesses (see warnings about the previous time he had been to KL), etc, all in a dangerous environment. I thought it was excellent writing that all fit together.

It was predictable because it is what realistically should have happened. However typically in TV shows you have some dramatic rescue or some convoluted plot point that prevents something like that was happening. What made his death shocking is precisely because what should have happened actually did happen.

 

[cbl1]

There's one way out that has been written into the show - recall the story of the Buran - Mirror!Lorca claimed he destroyed it to stop them being captured by Klingons. That leaves the story possibility that Prime!Lorca actually was, and that he still exists on some Klingon prison ship/planet (chance for a Rura Penthe fanservice ep!).

I think we are destine to get a flashback on the Buran as to what really happened. And I hope it involves both Lorcas actually being heroes (MU and PU).

 

[Donker]

After this Klingon War / Mirror Universe season I am honestly at a loss as to what next season will be, besides the writers saying there may be more classic Trek standalones. Giving this a lot of thought, can't figure it out. Where are they going with all of this?

They've done absolutely no worldbuilding with Discovery so it's hard to guess what they have planned.
My hope is legitimately Reset at the end of this Season through time warp mycelium network nonsense, then the writers watch A LOT of DS9 and S3/4 of ENT and learn how to do serialised Trek properly and then have S2 be what S1 should have been, actually developing a good cast of characters and building the world up so stakes actually matter.

DS9 did it so well with the rumours of the Dominion trickling in, then actually starting to explore the Gamma Quadrant and hearing more about the Dominion, then encountering the Dominion, then the tensions racketing up then the actual conflict breaking out.
Over seasons this took place and through it you learned to love the setting, the characters, the world and by the time the conflict breaks out the stakes are sky high.

Klingon War should have never taken place till at least S2. First season should have been establishing characters and the world with tensions ratcheting up with the Klingons only for then war to break out in S2 and we can explore the conflict from a cast of characters we know from both sides.