Non-Starfleet Federation fleets?

[Megapolis]

Why aren't non-Starfleet Federation fleets involved in major Federation conflicts and wars? Do they still continue to exist? The founding members of the Federation are Humans, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites, which means we should be seeing something resembling the following in larger numbers:

Something similar to the alliance fleet in DS9 but consisting of the Federation members:

Alternatively, each fleet would be in its own formation.

Instead, when it comes to the Federation fleets, we are shown this:

Or this:

The following scene from Star Trek: Discovery is known as arrival of the Federation fleet:

Every single one of the Federation ships appears to be Starfleet.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

My understanding is that individual planet's militaries focus on defending their own planet.

 

[The Wormhole]

In DS9 it's implied that Starfleet is the only military in the Federation. Oh sorry, I forgot "military" is a dirty word in relation to Starfleet. Starfleet is the only organization defending the Federation and its worlds. And indeed, when Bajor was going to be admitted into the Federation, the Bajoran Militia was going to be "absorbed" into Starfleet. Also, Betazed fell to the Dominion due to Starfleet's inaction. No reference was made to a Betazoid military or defense force. Though the novels ignored this and do say each Federation world does maintain its own military, even the Bajoran Militia still exists though Bajor is now a Federation world.

Spoiler: Discovery

Curiously, it appears the Vulcans do still have their own independent fleet in Discovery, the so-called "Vulcan Expeditionary Group" who answer to the Science Academy, but are almost Nazi-esque about only having "pure-blooded" Vulcans in their ranks. Also, since the Disco bridge crew recognized a ship attacking them in the MU as a Vulcan combat cruiser, the implication would suggest that in the Prime Universe (or wherever Discovery is from) there is indeed a Vulcan military/defense force in the twenty-third century anyway.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spoiler: Discovery

Curiously, it appears the Vulcans do still have their own independent fleet in Discovery, the so-called "Vulcan Expeditionary Group" who answer to the Science Academy, but are almost Nazi-esque about only having "pure-blooded" Vulcans in their ranks.

They got the right to mount scientific expeditions.

Also, since the Disco bridge crew recognized a ship attacking them in the MU as a Vulcan combat cruiser, the implication would suggest that in the Prime Universe (or wherever Discovery is from) there is indeed a Vulcan military/defense force in the twenty-third century anyway.

Probably a few left over from the glory days of the Vulcan High Command.​

 

[Timo]

They don't actually say "Vulcan combat cruiser" - they call the vessel "Vulcan cruiser" while showing the same tiny runabout that almost got Sarek killed.

Calling a small boat "cruiser" is valid terminology today in two senses: it could be a pleasure cruiser, akin to the Aurora of TOS "Way to Eden", or a police cruiser. Here the former would seem to apply, although there may be echoes of the latter, too.

The heroes don't strictly attribute the carnage to the "Vulcan cruiser", either - they attribute it to "the Vulcans". Perhaps they think there might be bigger Vulcan ships lurking around, which takes us back to the concept of Vulcan in the 2250s having some fighting ships. Or perhaps they are just utterly confused.

We have never seen Vulcan ships defend Vulcan or fight for the Vulcans in the post-ENT universe where the Federation Starfleet exists. But we have heard of Vulcan ships, including a force that was supposed to defend Vulcan in TNG "Unification". So debate rages on whether these unseen ships were simply those Starfleet starships currently assigned to defend Vulcan, or some sort of an independent Vulcan force, perhaps even flying vessels of Vulcan design. Although statistically speaking there's little point for the debate to rage, as Starfleet with its generic ships is all we ever see. Vulcan ships of Vulcan design would have to be conscientious abstainers in the Dominion War... As would Andorian and Tellarite ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Starfleet is the main force of the Federation, though each world would maintain their own defence force for their homeworld and key assets.

 

[Timo]

...It's just quite remarkable that we never see any signs of such a force - not even of a local police force at that. And we do hear that bit about the Bajoran militia having to be absorbed into Starfleet at joining.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightfall to-Ennien]

Assuming the retention of individual system services, it would be likely that they would begin to adopt common starship designs as time went on. Older vessels which may lack the speed and endurance to cover long distances may still be perfectly serviceable for in-system and local-space service, and may be pressed into service again in emergency situations, such as the numerous Mirandas and Excelsiors we saw in the Dominion War.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

All the countries that are part of the likes of the UN and NATO, which have their own peacekeeping roles, still have their own armed services.

 

[1001001]

In DS9 it's implied that Starfleet is the only military in the Federation. Oh sorry, I forgot "military" is a dirty word in relation to Starfleet. Starfleet is the only organization defending the Federation and its worlds. And indeed, when Bajor was going to be admitted into the Federation, the Bajoran Militia was going to be "absorbed" into Starfleet. Also, Betazed fell to the Dominion due to Starfleet's inaction. Ne reference was made to a Betazoid military or defense force. Though the novels ignored this and do say each Federation world does maintain its own military, even the Bajoran Militia still exists though Bajor is now a Federation world.

Spoiler: Discovery

Curiously, it appears the Vulcans do still have their own independent fleet in Discovery, the so-called "Vulcan Expeditionary Group" who answer to the Science Academy, but are almost Nazi-esque about only having "pure-blooded" Vulcans in their ranks. Also, since the Disco bridge crew recognized a ship attacking them in the MU as a Vulcan combat cruiser, the implication would suggest that in the Prime Universe (or wherever Discovery is from) there is indeed a Vulcan military/defense force in the twenty-third century anyway.

I have put the second paragraph in spoiler code.

PLEASE do NOT post Discovery Spoilers in this forum.

 

[Timo]

Older vessels which may lack the speed and endurance to cover long distances may still be perfectly serviceable for in-system and local-space service, and may be pressed into service again in emergency situations, such as the numerous Mirandas and Excelsiors we saw in the Dominion War.

But we did see the Mirandas and Excelsiors yet saw zero sign of ships of pronouncedly Vulcan or Andorian or Berengarian design. If the Dominion War doesn't count as a sufficient emergency, then nothing apparently will, and any "indigenous" hardware is unapplicable for any sort of military service that might possibly involve a Paramount camera.

All the countries that are part of the likes of the UN and NATO, which have their own peacekeeping roles, still have their own armed services.

So apparently the UFP is completely unlike the UN or the NATO in this respect...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Starfleet is the main force of the Federation, though each world would maintain their own defence force for their homeworld and key assets.

Would they, though? We know from Beyond Earth's military force the MACOs were disbanded and absorbed into Starfleet when the Federation was founded, meaning Earth has to rely entirely on Starfleet for defense and protection. And indeed, it was Starfleet that enforced the State of Emergency in the Homefront storyline. Hell, there isn't even an indication of an Earth government there, although that was an intentional decision to not confuse the audience.

I have put the second paragraph in spoiler code.

PLEASE do NOT post Discovery Spoilers in this forum.

My apologies, I wasn't thinking.

 

[1001001]

No worries, I know you didn't do it on purpose.

 

[Tenacity]

Also, Betazed fell to the Dominion due to Starfleet's inaction. No reference was made to a Betazed military or defense force.

That's not true, there was mention of a Betazed defense force, it was said to have been old and weak. Although I seem to remember them holding off the Jem Hadar for a time. Why would a Starfleet force be described as "old and weak?"

The defense ships seen in the second part of The Best of Both Worlds were of a design different than what Starfleet seems to use. These could be ships of our system's "home guard."

There's mention of Mars defense parimeter, but no way of knowing if that referred to the ship's seen

Journey to Babel mentioned Tellarite ships, but no indicate what kind of ships they were, so perhaps defense ships.

Unification mentions Vulcan defense ships.

So apparently the UFP is completely unlike the UN or the NATO in this respect...

We don't see or hear of most federation member's militaries, but then again we don't see or hear of most of the members at all.

The series does focus on Starfleet.

 

[The Wormhole]

That's not true, there was mention of a Betazed defense force, it was said to have been old and weak. Although I seem to remember them holding off the Jem Hadar for a time. Why would a Starfleet force be described as "old and weak?"

Afraid not. Here's the actual line from the episode:

SISKO: According to initial reports, the invasion force must have come from somewhere in the Calandra Sector.
DAX: Did Starfleet Intelligence know anything about the buildup?
WORF: No. They believed Calandra was too far from the Dominion supply lines to be a threat.
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.

You'll note, the exact term used is "defense systems" not "defense force." In my head canon, I have always assumed that meant Starfleet orbital facilities, though I'll admit there's room for interpretation. Regardless, it was the Tenth Fleet's absence that more or less lost the battle.

The defense ships seen in the second part of The Best of Both Worlds were of a design different than what Starfleet seems to use. These could be ships of our system's "home guard."

There's mention of Mars defense parimeter, but no way of knowing if that referred to the ship's seen

No way of knowing if that referred to the ships seen? We see those ships get destroyed by the Borg cube, then cut to the Enterprise's bridge with Data reporting the Borg are through the Mars Defense Perimeter. Occam's Razor would seem to be on the side that those ships are the Mars Defense Perimeter. Indeed, the TNG Companion published in the 90s even confirms this was the intent.

 

[Nightfall to-Ennien]

But we did see the Mirandas and Excelsiors yet saw zero sign of ships of pronouncedly Vulcan or Andorian or Berengarian design. If the Dominion War doesn't count as a sufficient emergency, then nothing apparently will, and any "indigenous" hardware is unapplicable for any sort of military service that might possibly involve a Paramount camera.

Exactly. To be entirely honest I do not see the need for individual planetary fleets (or individual planetary governments for that matter, but that’s a whole different can of worms) I’m just speculating based on what we saw. “Indigenous” designs featured prominently in Enterprise, but as time went on they faded away, the last Federation vessels I recall with distinct designs identifying them as from a specific member world being Spock’s long-range shuttle in The Motion Picture and the T’Pau used in TNG.

It is my hypothesis that the Federation member worlds fairly quickly determined that, at least in terms of ships of the line, it didn’t make a great deal of sense to develop individual designs, but rather to contribute to the development of common Federation vessel designs where their expertise lay. The Oberth class, for example, may have had a Vulcan design lead, as to my eyes she shares a similar Art Moderne aesthetic with the ENT-era Vulcan ringships, and who else better to develop a science ship than the Vulcans?

That being said, we did see two single-species Starfleet ships, the Intrepid in TOS and the T’Kumbra in DS9. (Starting to sense a trend?) which may have normally operated under the aegis of the Vulcan Science Academy. However, the single-species crew makeup may also be due simply to the fact that Vulcans have a different baseline for climate than humans, so they may keep the temperature higher and the air drier in the common areas, while there may be Andorian-run ships running around with all the thermostats set to 15C.

 

[The Wormhole]

However, the single-species crew makeup may also be due simply to the fact that Vulcans have a different baseline for climate than humans,

In the case of the T'Kumbra, I think an all-Vulcan crew had more to do with its captain being a douche.

 

[uniderth]

Spacefleet Command and Space Central appeared to be in full operation during the 2260s. The Enterprise was even occasionally on assignment for them.

 

[Modern Futuristic]

It is my hypothesis that the Federation member worlds fairly quickly determined that, at least in terms of ships of the line, it didn’t make a great deal of sense to develop individual designs, but rather to contribute to the development of common Federation vessel designs where their expertise lay.

In other words, their distinctiveness was added to the Federation's own?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

IIRC, TrekLit seems to assume a somewhat federalist approach. The Bajoran Militia still exists, but seems to be limited to the Bajoran system or even Bajor itself, the Andorian Imperial Guard still maintains National Guard/Ceremonial Marine Guard-esque functions (and potentially Sector/Coast Guard functions as they still have long-range capable warships as late as the 2380s) and Vulcan still has independent space forces and an independent security/intelligence agency and there have IIRC been other occassions were similar organisations have been shown.

IMO, Starfleet is responsible for most (the VSA's VEG suggests not all) of the state-backed exploration and expeditionary activities external to the Federation, and member states have the option (but not all do) to take advantage of Starfleet's resources for their internal needs and for interactions between member worlds. Earth takes full advantage of this due to the mostly human-centric nature of Starfleet, whereas the Vulcans, Andorians and Bajorans (among others) have opted for a less complete approach for their own reasons.