i still don't think so - the tradition is 'royal navy' not 'any british service' - you are trying to keep the door open for your interpretation. occam's razor leads to a different picture.
Federation Founders
- Thread starter Bry_Sinclair
- Start date
Fair enough, but Occam has little place in fiction (in addition to bein fundamentally faulty anyway). When there is nothing explicit, we cannot call the implicit "true", regardless of what things like common sense might suggest.
Here common sense does not apply: we witness the creation of World Government, outdating all our reference frames. And we certainly cannot derive the nature of that transition by interpretingthe Reed family curse through our preferred interpretation of the transition. Except, you know, as an interpretation.
Timo Saloniemi
Here common sense does not apply: we witness the creation of World Government, outdating all our reference frames. And we certainly cannot derive the nature of that transition by interpretingthe Reed family curse through our preferred interpretation of the transition. Except, you know, as an interpretation.
Timo Saloniemi
Unless Earth is united in little more than name only. The modern nations aren't exactly united with the United Nations, why expect more unity with a future world government organization?
Going very briefly into fan fiction realm (non-canon of course), in addition to it's surface ships, the British navy in the 22nd century had expanded to include spacecraft and it's own starships. Reed would have had to of been capable of serving on surface warships, as well as spacecraft.
And he was afraid of water.
Why would Reed even think about joining the British navy if it was going to be disbanded in only a few years? Something like that would have been talked about and foreseen for some time, decades easily.
You mean the British would have been prepared and knowing what lay ahead? Like, say, with Brexit? 
Why we should expect 2150 to be more conclusive than 1948 or 1920:
1) Only by terminating the existence of independent nations and their external trappings, i.e. they ways they can exercise their independence, can 2150 really meet the purpose of Crusher's speculation. If Britain has weapons with which to defend its right to disagree, Earth remains KesPrytt.
2) There were plenty of "stirrings" before 2150, allowing this date to denote the well-founded conclusion. Really, the conclusion has to come at some point, and we're given that point; why don't we hear of the day Earth really got united if 2150 isn't it?
Timo Saloniemi
Why we should expect 2150 to be more conclusive than 1948 or 1920:
1) Only by terminating the existence of independent nations and their external trappings, i.e. they ways they can exercise their independence, can 2150 really meet the purpose of Crusher's speculation. If Britain has weapons with which to defend its right to disagree, Earth remains KesPrytt.
2) There were plenty of "stirrings" before 2150, allowing this date to denote the well-founded conclusion. Really, the conclusion has to come at some point, and we're given that point; why don't we hear of the day Earth really got united if 2150 isn't it?
Timo Saloniemi
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Brexit hardly came out of nowhere.
Personally, I would suggest that in the cases of both United Earth and the United Federation of Planets, it might be helpful to think about the United States of America. (My knowledge of the United Kingdom being much less, not being from there.) Yes, there is an overall sovereign state with a supreme government, legislature, judicial system, military, embassies, etc., that encompasses the whole and speaks with a single voice to the rest of the world, yet within it are many smaller states which, while not fully sovereign unto themselves, nevertheless retain their own individual governments with some measure of autonomy, the capacity to make and enforce their own laws and regulate their own activities, with their own agencies and police forces and courts to effect this, to the extent that such does not directly contravene federal law. Certain powers are reserved to the federal government, and others are reserved to the state governments. Coordination and cooperation between federal and state governments and agencies is fairly routine, whether as a matter of strict requirement or simply agreed practice.
Thus, it is entirely possible that what were thereto fully sovereign nation-states such as Australia continue to exist in some form (perhaps diminished, but still distinct) under the United Earth World Government, just as the governments and agencies of Earth and Vulcan (which even seems to still have its own embassy, per TMP) and Ardana continue to persist within the UFP.
(As for the Royal Navy, that could well have been incorporated into the United Earth Military, but retaining its historical name as a unit within that structure. Or it could have been entirely disbanded. The former could have happened well before Malcolm made his decision to join Starfleet, and the latter decades after. Starfleet has apparently been around since the mid-2130s or so, at which time Malcolm would have been in his late teens.)
-MMoM
Thus, it is entirely possible that what were thereto fully sovereign nation-states such as Australia continue to exist in some form (perhaps diminished, but still distinct) under the United Earth World Government, just as the governments and agencies of Earth and Vulcan (which even seems to still have its own embassy, per TMP) and Ardana continue to persist within the UFP.
(As for the Royal Navy, that could well have been incorporated into the United Earth Military, but retaining its historical name as a unit within that structure. Or it could have been entirely disbanded. The former could have happened well before Malcolm made his decision to join Starfleet, and the latter decades after. Starfleet has apparently been around since the mid-2130s or so, at which time Malcolm would have been in his late teens.)
Simply to point out that some of the things being assumed in any of our theoretical scenarios haven't in fact been directly spelled out and nailed down on screen, I presume. What is the point of having the discussion, if not to discuss any and all of the various possibilities in play?Then why the hell did you bring it up?
-MMoM
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Yes.
An alternative, speaking with a single voice might be the world government's foremost (but not only) duty. Not a sovereign planetary Earth-Gov, but Earth's spokesperson to the galaxy. Sending out diplomats, representatives, and agents to speak for Earth, Earth's interests and Earth's nations, instead of each nation having to do so independently.
In Attached, Beverly associated a lack of any nation being a part of a "world government" with being disqualified to be a Federation member. Being able to speak with a unified voice might be that qualification. And while there likely are other qualifications, speaking with one voice could be the only one that comes from the world government.
Given that nation-states in the 22nd century likely already possessed the ability to perform these functions, why would a Earth-Gov be necessary to undertake them?
If the world government was created with only a few duties and obligations in mind (only those duties that the sovereign nation-states who created it designated to it) then a surrender of sovereignty wouldn't make sense. The world government wouldn't even have the capacity to be a Earth-Gov.
The nation-states would continue as before, except now there would be this "side organization" called the world government.
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Actually, that was clearly an unsettled question, a central one around which the whole plot of the episode revolved, with the very point of the exchange being to set up an analogy for the scenario at hand:
PICARD: [voiceover] Captain's log, stardate 47304.2. The Enterprise has arrived at Kesprytt III, in order to evaluate an unusual request on the part of the Kes for associate membership in the Federation.
[...]
CRUSHER: Are you worried about this mission with the Kes?
PICARD: Not worried, exactly. This notion of admitting half of their planet while leaving the other half out...
CRUSHER: First of all, the Kes are not half the planet; they're nearly three quarters of it. And the Prytt are not being left out—they themselves simply don't want to have contact with anyone from the outside, not the Federation or anyone else.
PICARD: Every member of the Federation entered as a unified world. And that unity said something about them, that they had resolved certain social and political differences, and they were now ready to become part of a larger community.
CRUSHER: By all indications, the Kes are a very unified, very progressive people.
PICARD: But the Prytt are not. They are reclusive to the point of xenophobia.
CRUSHER: Well, think about Earth. What if one of the old nation-states, say Australia, had decided not to join the World Government in 2150? Would that have disqualified us as a Federation member?
PICARD: [shaking head] That analogy is not exactly—
RIKER: [over comms] Riker to Captain.
PICARD: Go ahead, Number One.
Of course, it's an analogy that Picard seems to be about to reject, for reasons we don't get to hear expounded upon because he is interrupted. And it is outright stated for us that there is no precedent for an overtly divided planet being admitted to the Federation (despite there being precedent for a member world's nominally unified government to in fact be imposing its rule on unwilling segments of its population in Ardana from "The Cloud Minders" [TOS]—a fact that seems to have been concealed at the time of its admittance, based both on that epsiode's plot and on Sisko's mention that caste-based discrimination goes against the UFP's charter in "Accession" [DS9]). But the posing of the question itself (and thus the plot of "Attached") wouldn't make any sense if it weren't an open one.
-MMoM
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It is rather likely that "joining" and "being a member" carry different requirements, so Picard's objection might be trivial and technical. But discussing KesPrytt is pretty much the primary mission of the crew at the time, so Picard probably wouldn't be tackling basic trivialities in his arguments. Is he really thinking/fearing KesPrytt might be accepted against precedent? It sounds as if Starfleet sent him to witness exactly that. If so, he might be grasping at straws to defend the precedent.
Well, exactly. If a nation after that much premeditation can be so totally unprepared, then the Reeds thinking the World Government will let Royal Navy live forever is only natural, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, exactly. If a nation after that much premeditation can be so totally unprepared, then the Reeds thinking the World Government will let Royal Navy live forever is only natural, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, in the course of the episode, his concerns about the prospect of admitting only part of a divided world (or indeed, multiple parts separately) being problematic prove to be quite well founded indeed...
LORIN: We're already aware of your plan to use Federation technology to build new attack satellites. You will find that we are prepared for them.
MAURIC: That is an interesting but pointless lie. I'd rather discuss your own plans to use Federation aid to stage a takeover of Kolrod Island!
LORIN: We have been over this before! Kolrod clearly belongs to the Prytt, who originally—
RIKER: [slams hand against tabletop] That's it! I can see that diplomacy is not going to get us anywhere today, and I do not have time to negotiate. So let's put all of our cards on the table. You're concerned that the Kes are going to be admitted to the Federation.
LORIN: Correct.
RIKER: As first officer of the Enterprise, I think I can promise you, that is not going to happen. The Kes will be denied membership.
MAURIC: You have no authority to make that decision. Despite whatever games you played with the Prytt when you arrived, we still plan to take our petition directly to the Federation Council. They'll listen to—
RIKER: They will also listen to the reports of the captain of the Enterprise and his first officer. And I can tell you right now, the first officer's report will go something like this: "Kesprytt, a deeply troubled world. Social, political, military problems that they have yet to resolve. The Kes, while a friendly and democratic people, are driven by suspicion, deviousness, and paranoia. It is the opinion of this officer that they are not ready for membership."
But of course, there's no suggestion that this settles the question for all future cases, just this particular one.
-MMoM
LORIN: We're already aware of your plan to use Federation technology to build new attack satellites. You will find that we are prepared for them.
MAURIC: That is an interesting but pointless lie. I'd rather discuss your own plans to use Federation aid to stage a takeover of Kolrod Island!
LORIN: We have been over this before! Kolrod clearly belongs to the Prytt, who originally—
RIKER: [slams hand against tabletop] That's it! I can see that diplomacy is not going to get us anywhere today, and I do not have time to negotiate. So let's put all of our cards on the table. You're concerned that the Kes are going to be admitted to the Federation.
LORIN: Correct.
RIKER: As first officer of the Enterprise, I think I can promise you, that is not going to happen. The Kes will be denied membership.
MAURIC: You have no authority to make that decision. Despite whatever games you played with the Prytt when you arrived, we still plan to take our petition directly to the Federation Council. They'll listen to—
RIKER: They will also listen to the reports of the captain of the Enterprise and his first officer. And I can tell you right now, the first officer's report will go something like this: "Kesprytt, a deeply troubled world. Social, political, military problems that they have yet to resolve. The Kes, while a friendly and democratic people, are driven by suspicion, deviousness, and paranoia. It is the opinion of this officer that they are not ready for membership."
But of course, there's no suggestion that this settles the question for all future cases, just this particular one.
-MMoM
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Would have been interesting to have heard how Crusher's analogy was incorrect and what would have been closer to the truth.
Still, Picard didn't seem to be saying Crusher's statement was completely off.
Kirk and Spock discussed Ardana at the beginning of the episode, the social divide was known to them, as was the name of the lower class. Only the existence of a miner's resistance group was unknown.
What leads you to believe the Ardana domestic situation was "concealed."
Or there was no prospect of the world government desolving Britain's (or any nations) military forces. Such a decision would be entirely in the hands of the individual nations. The world government would have no say one way or the other, it would be out of it's purview.
The existence of a true resistance with legitimate grievances (initially portrayed to them by Plasus as merely a small group of disrupters) being unknown is key. They didn't seem to know that the Troglytes were in fact treated as a lower class without equal rights, and were an unconsenting party to the arrangement, and being harmed by it. Kirk seemed to think it was by their own agreement that they were to provide the zenite. I don't think the Federation would be against distinct social groups following different customs and professions and fulfilling different roles in society freely by choice, only to the imposition of such by force or coercion. I think the Feds must have been thereto led to believe that all were being treated fairly under the Government Council's law on Ardana, even though they were not.
-MMoM
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My impression was that the disruptors were a fairly small group within the trogs, and were a resent creation.
The planet was the only (?) source of zenite, that alone probably guaranteed admissions.
Why bother hiding anything at the time of admission?
Plasus portrayed them that way, yes. That's my point. Kirk and Spock, who were already familiar with the planet's reputation as a peaceful and enlightened one, were under the impression that the arrangement was by mutual agreement, and were initially mystified at the motives of the Disrupters, because they assumed that it was a reciprocally equitable and beneficial one until it became clear that it was not. Plasus feared exposure of this because he knew it would lead to serious diplomatic trouble with the rest of the Federation.
SPOCK: It would seem the Troglytes have changed their minds about delivery.
[Disrupters attack]
KIRK: Who are you? What's the meaning of this attack?
VANNA: Interference breeds attack, Captain. Come on!
KIRK: We're here by permission of your Government Council on an emergency mission.
[...]
SPOCK: The Disrupters? Who are they?
PLASUS: A small group of Troglyte malcontents. All the other Troglytes are completely dominated by them. It's the Disrupters who are responsible for their refusal to continue mining for zenite.
KIRK: They agreed to the delivery. Your Council assured us of it.
PLASUS: They agreed, obviously, as a ruse to get valuable hostages.
KIRK: Hostages? For what purpose?
PLASUS: To force the Council to meet their demands.
[...]
DROXINE: How dreadful! They're despoiling the whole city!
SPOCK: Despoil? For what purpose?
PLASUS: By keeping us in constant turmoil, they hope to force the Council to accede to their demands.
KIRK: What are their demands?
PLASUS: Completely unreasonable, Captain, but nothing you need be concerned with.
[...]
SPOCK: But why do they destroy art forms? That is a loss to everyone.
PLASUS: Art means nothing to the Disrupters.
[...]
PLASUS: It's fortunate that they were not seriously hurt.
DROXINE: Oh, yes, that would have been dreadful.
PLASUS: Further violence could create grave difficulties between Ardana and the Federation.
DROXINE: The Disrupters must be mad to attack two such charming strangers!
PLASUS: They grow more daring and determined every day. Now they seek to find allies in the galaxy.
DROXINE: Do you think that Captain Kirk and his very attractive officer will feel that we're responsible for their injuries?
PLASUS: All this time I thought you were worried about our diplomatic relations!
[...]
SPOCK: [meditating internally] This troubled planet is a place of the most violent contrasts. Those who receive the rewards are totally separated from those who shoulder the burdens. It is not a wise leadership. Here on Stratos, everything is incomparably beautiful and pleasant. The High Advisor's charming daughter Droxine, particularly so. The name Droxine seems appropriate for her. I wonder, can she retain such purity and sweetness of mind and be aware of the life of the people on the surface of the planet? There, the harsh life in the mines is instilling the people with a bitter hatred. The young girl who led the attack against us when we beamed down was filled with the violence of desperation. If the lovely Droxine knew of the young miner's misery, I wonder how the knowledge would affect her?
[...]
VANNA: Lies will not keep the Troglytes in the caverns, and neither will your starship.
DROXINE: You talk like a Disrupter, Vanna.
VANNA: I speak for my people. They have as much right to the clouds as the Stratos dwellers.
DROXINE: But Stratos is for advisors and studiers. What would Troglytes do here?
VANNA: Live in the sunlight and warmth, as everyone should.
DROXINE: The caverns are warm, and your eyes are not accustomed to light, just as your minds are not accustomed to logic.
[dramatic beat, Spock raises eyebrow and appears concerned, Vanna is taken away]
KIRK: Unaccustomed to light and warmth? That's necessary to all humanoids. Surely, you don't deny it to the Troglytes?
DROXINE: The Troglytes are workers, Captain! Oh surely, you must be aware of that? They mine zenite for shipment, till the soil. Those things cannot be done here.
SPOCK: In other words, they perform all the physical toil necessary to maintain Stratos.
DROXINE: That is their function in our society.
SPOCK: But they are not allowed to share its advantages.
DROXINE: How can they share what they do not understand?
KIRK: They can be taught to understand, especially in a society that prides itself in enlightenment.
DROXINE: The complete separation of toil and leisure has given Ardana this perfectly balanced social system, Captain. Why should we change it?
SPOCK: The surface of the planet is almost unendurable. To restrict a segment of the population to such hardship is unthinkable in an evolved culture.
[...]
DROXINE: But what else can they understand, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: All the little things you and I understand and expect from life, such as equality, kindness, justice.
Because caste-based discrimination is considered "unthinkable" in the story, and goes directly against the Federation Charter per "Accession" (DS9), being considered grounds for rejection. But if you are suggesting there might have been a bit of willful "looking the other way" sort of like in Insurrection...I could perhaps buy that; it's not outside the realm of possibility, but I certainly don't see any direct indication of it. And I would think that even then, the Ardanans would have to at least have made some halfway convincing pretense at unity in order for it to be pulled off.
-MMoM
The two episodes are separated by more than a century in-universe, plus Ardana was a federation member for a unknown time period prior to the episode.
In addition, I think what they had was a social class system not castes..
The episode said that the Troglytes did the mining, but they also did the tilling of the soil, therefor they're not all miners, some are farmers. Servant in the capital cloud city were Troglytes. We also saw police in the cloud city.
Plus there would have been construction workers who built the cloud city, I doubt the elites in their society did that
If a person has options in occupations (assuming they do) then there is no caste system.
Because caste-based discrimination is considered "unthinkable" in the story, and goes directly against the Federation Charter per "Accession" (DS9), being considered grounds for rejection. But if you are suggesting there might have been a bit of willful "looking the other way" sort of like in Insurrection...I could perhaps buy that; it's not outside the realm of possibility, but I certainly don't see any direct indication of it. And I would think that even then, the Ardanans would have to at least have made some halfway convincing pretense at unity in order for it to be pulled off.
-MMoM
As "Accession" was 100 years after "Cloud Minders," we should be open to the idea the Federation Charter was possibly amended between the two episodes. Likewise, the possibility exists the Charter was amended between founding and "Cloud Minders."
And it is certainly possible that the situation on Ardana was the reason that the Charter was amended.
The idea that this was not a caste system because the Troglytes had the "option" of grubbing around in the toxic dirt in multiple ways or acting as servants and laborers in the city is ridiculous. India's caste system didn't restrict people to literally only one profession, either. The Troglytes were considered an inferior species by the city-dwellers, and did not have equal rights or protections under the law. Their movement and access to public facilities was restricted. (And no, the Sentinels were not Troglytes.) But the way @Tenacity whitewashes it is probably more or less the way the Planet Council did when Ardana joined.
Could the Charter have been amended? Yes, of course. But in any case, Our Heroes™ were clearly shocked and surprised in the "Cloud Minders" (TOS) to find things as they were on Ardana, having assumed the Troglytes were treated equitably, despite already having read up on the planet beforehand, so the coercive oppression can't have been a widely and openly known thing to the rest of the Federation, or their reactions wouldn't make any sense. And further, if Ardana had not at least represented itself as being peacefully unified under the Planet Council at the time of its admission—as, again, they were still doing when the story took place—then this wouldn't fit with Picard's comments in "Attached" (TNG).
-MMoM
Could the Charter have been amended? Yes, of course. But in any case, Our Heroes™ were clearly shocked and surprised in the "Cloud Minders" (TOS) to find things as they were on Ardana, having assumed the Troglytes were treated equitably, despite already having read up on the planet beforehand, so the coercive oppression can't have been a widely and openly known thing to the rest of the Federation, or their reactions wouldn't make any sense. And further, if Ardana had not at least represented itself as being peacefully unified under the Planet Council at the time of its admission—as, again, they were still doing when the story took place—then this wouldn't fit with Picard's comments in "Attached" (TNG).
-MMoM
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But? But what? Both of those points go together.
Of course not. That's exactly why the Federation Charter would be amended.
Assuming there was no prohibition against caste systems before this episode took place, the shock that Federation officials would feel upon seeing the conditions on the planet firsthand would be just what spurs them to amend the Charter so that this can't ever happen again.
I'm sure that the Ardanans were quite experienced in spin doctoring. I assume that this episode was the first time that anyone from the Federation ever visited the planet personally, so before that time, Ardana only allowed their own propaganda to get out. No one ever found out about the Troglytes because that information wasn't permitted to get out there at all. It took Kirk's visit to make the Federation aware of it.
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