Federation Founders

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Couple too many "James R. Kirk" type situations to take every piece of throwaway jargon in early TOS as canonically binding.

That's a bit of a straw man with respect to anything I've brought up in this discussion.

United Earth (or at least a conceptual framework thereof) apparently predates both the beginnings and the final completion of the World Government (or a world government, depending on one's choice of interpretation). This is by canonical references that come long after "early TOS"—they're from TNG and VGR (and Starfleet going back decades before 2150 is from ENT itself)—and have not been directly contradicted by any subsequent ones as "James R. Kirk" was.

The question has been posed here as to how Earth's colonies might fit in with respect to United Earth and the UFP, something which is ambiguous in canon and thus cannot be answered without some speculation. In so speculating, why not avail ourselves of stray references to an "Earth Federation"—which, irrespective of whether one considers them "canonically binding" or just "mistakes," come from second-season TOS and TAS, after the United Federation Of Planets had already been invented as a concept—taking the opportunity to land both wild birds with one stone? Perhaps at some point subsequent to ENT, United Earth along with the Lunar and Martian Colonies, etc., form together this conglomerate entity known as the Earth Federation? Perhaps it is this entity—no doubt often referred to in general parlance simply as "Earth"—which then goes on to be represented in the UFP, rather than the United Earth World Government having exclusive representation or Mars and Luna each separately having their own? It's merely a suggestion, a possibility, not "binding" in the least...but perhaps supportable by creative use of such obscure canonical references. Unless someone can point out others that refute such a scenario?

-MMoM

 

[Timo]

It's a bit difficult to imagine a scenario that would disprove the idea that "Earth" would cover both Earth and its outer holdings. If Kirk on one occasion clearly speaks of just the planet Earth, he is entitled to that even if the word is also shorthand for the Earth Federation in other contexts.

I don't think anybody ever explicitly referred to any of Earth's offworld colonies as "Earth", though. Unless places like Earth Colony Two are named like that specifically to tell them apart from independent human colonies that vote separately from the Earth Federation... I mean, what other rationale would there be for such a dull choice of name, unless EC2 and by probable inference at least EC1 as well are colonies founded by diehard Earth bureaucrats who were dissatisfied with the reckless use of imagination elsewhere in the human realm?

But yes, my vote also goes to Earth having a miniature federation around itself, serving as a voting block more commonly named Earth or possibly United Earth.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

But yes, my vote also goes to Earth having a miniature federation around itself, serving as a voting block more commonly named Earth or possibly United Earth.

This could explain the use of "Earth Federation" from one episode. Earth, various colonies, and even former colonies, in association. Might even include non-Human worlds closely affiliated with Humans.

Not everything Earth does would have to be through the federation

But ENT shows a single government in action basically across the globe, with a single set of Ministers and assorted agencies quoted, and without any nations ever associated with these offices and agencies.

But we do hear of Britain (or was it the UK?) still possessing it's own military force.

Where does the "United" bit in the embassy banner come from, then?

United in order to send a unified diplomatic mission? Instead of various nations sending separate missions which could get expensive, smaller nations might not be able to send interstellar mssion, then there'd be protests.

Couple too many "James R. Kirk" type situations to take every piece of throwaway jargon in early TOS as canonically binding

In the 23rd century, would United Earth fit the description of " throwaway jargon?" We only clearly hear it spoken by Kirk in one episode. Then there something like "Espak" in Charlie X, and the notation on the Enterprise B's dedication plate which wasn't clearly visible in the movie.

Throwaway jargon?[/quote]

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

This could explain the use of "Earth Federation" from one episode.

You're acting like that was done on purpose. It was not.

The simple fact is, there were a LOT of different names used, and they can't all be true. Some of them are just going to have to be thrown out.

When "United Federation of Planets" (for the interstellar organization), "Starfleet" (for the UFP's military), and "United Earth" (for Earth's government which is a member of the UFP) were decided upon, those became definitive. Whatever names that conflict with them (like "Earth Federation") must be discarded. Officially, those alternate terms never existed. It's as simple as that.

Retcons are an unavoidable fact of all shows, including this one. You can't ignore them. They happened before and will happen again.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

You're acting like that was done on purpose. It was not.

What difference does that make? Offscreen authorial intent does not define the limits of possible interpretation of what is onscreen.

The simple fact is, there were a LOT of different names used, and they can't all be true. Some of them are just going to have to be thrown out.

That isn't always so. In many cases it is perfectly possible to come up with ways of explaining them that do allow them to all be true. Which, again, is often more fun, and sometimes helpful in solving other problems elsewhere.

Whatever names that conflict with them (like "Earth Federation") must be discarded. Officially, those alternate terms never existed. It's as simple as that.

Only if you want it to be as simple as that. That's your choice. Whether there is a conflict or not is a matter of interpretation.

The military and the federal government often coordinate and cooperate with other agencies and authorities, both in real life and in Star Trek. Starfleet does not have unilateral authority to go anywhere and do anything it pleases within the UFP; there are still local governments and jurisdictions that must be respected, even if they in turn are under certain obligations to other Federation members:

"The Cloud Minders" (TOS):

PLASUS: I assure you, gentlemen, you will get what you came for.
KIRK: I hope so. Ardana is a member of the Federation, and it is your council's responsibility that nothing interferes with its obligation to another member of the Federation.

[...]

KIRK: I am here to get that zenite. If these will help me get them, I'll use them.
PLASUS: And I forbid it. Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments. This communication has ended.
KIRK: My diplomacy is somewhat inadequate.
MCCOY: It's pretty hard to overcome prejudice.
KIRK: Doesn't give us much choice, does it.
SPOCK: Nor much time. We have ten hours and forty minutes to deliver that consignment to Merak II.
KIRK: Beam me down to Vanna's confinement quarters.
MCCOY: You mean you're going back to Stratos against government orders?
KIRK: If Vanna doesn't have something definite to gain for her people, she'll die rather than turn over that zenite consignment. This is the only thing that might convince her.
SPOCK: Captain, if you are apprehended deliberately violating the High Advisor's orders, he will be within his rights to have you executed, if he chooses.

It also seems to be suggested that member worlds retain some limited degree of their own planetary defense systems and vessels according to "Unification" (TNG) and "In The Pale Moonlight" (DS9).

-MMoM

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Another explicit example of there being other UFP authorities that must be dealt with even by Starfleet in "The Mark Of Gideon" (TOS)...

SPOCK: Lieutenant Uhura, has Starfleet honored our request with a reply?
UHURA: There has been no response as yet, Sir.
SPOCK: Did you advise them the captain's life is at stake?
UHURA: Yes, Sir. They insist that the matter must be referred to the Federation.
SPOCK: What department?
UHURA: Bureau of Planetary Treaties.
SPOCK: Contact them directly.
UHURA: I did, Mister Spock. They insist that we must go through Starfleet channels.

And remember how Galactic High Commissioner Ferris was empowered with the "authority" to override standing Starfleet orders in "The Galileo Seven" (TOS)?

-MMoM

 

[Timo]

But we do hear of Britain (or was it the UK?) still possessing it's own military force.

Not really. There are references to the previous generations of Reeds having served in the Royal Navy, but all that is well in the past of Malcolm's generation, and certainly precedes the 2150 unification of Earth under a single government.

United in order to send a unified diplomatic mission?

That was covered in the other scenario. Either Earth is united or then it is not. If it is, then it does not need a united embassy, merely an embassy for United Earth.

The simple fact is, there were a LOT of different names used, and they can't all be true.

Why not? Many things have multiple names even at a single timepoint, and these Trek references span a great deal of time.

When "United Federation of Planets" (for the interstellar organization), "Starfleet" (for the UFP's military), and "United Earth" (for Earth's government which is a member of the UFP) were decided upon, those became definitive. Whatever names that conflict with them (like "Earth Federation") must be discarded. Officially, those alternate terms never existed. It's as simple as that.

But that's not true of the real world. There's a dozen nicknames for the United States Navy used by its personnel; the place itself may be "the States", "America", "the USA", "the US", "North America", "Mainland", "New World", "the Lower 48" or an endless string of more or often less appropriate expressions. And whatever the people governing the place would prefer to be called is almost by default not the preference of most speakers...

Retcons are an unavoidable fact of all shows, including this one. You can't ignore them. They happened before and will happen again.

Funnily enough, it's pretty darn difficult to find even a single "retcon" that would have erased a previous Trek factoid from existence. The Trek "retcon" instead almost invariably just reinterprets the earlier evidence, allowing things like "invisibility screens" to prevail even after the introduction of the term "cloak".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[oberth]

Not really. There are references to the previous generations of Reeds having served in the Royal Navy, but all that is well in the past of Malcolm's generation, and certainly precedes the 2150 unification of Earth under a single government.
Timo Saloniemi

he does state reasons why he broke the family tradition, though and instead opted for starfleet

 

[Tenacity]

and "United Earth" (for Earth's government which is a member of the UFP) were decided upon

Problem there is "United Earth" was never stated to be the Earth-Gov of the 23rd and 24th centuries, again the only United Earth uses in the 23rd was always and solely connect to space probe agency.And no usage in the 24th. Exactly what United Earth was in the 22nd is unclear and (obviously) open to the wild conjecture that it's Earth's sovereign plantary government.

Government can mean the governing body of a community, perhaps a community of hundreds of fully sovereign nation-states.

Governing the international community organization, not the nation-states themselves.

You're acting like that was done on purpose. It was not

I believe it was deliberately put into the script, and that script would have been reviewed by Roddenberry.

Some of them are just going to have to be thrown out.

Like Kirk's one time clear use of United Earth? What about Vulcan Space Central from Amok Time? Toss that out too because it wasn't the United Federation of Planets and should have been?

There are references to the previous generations of Reeds having served in the Royal Navy, but all that is well in the past of Malcolm's generation

Malcolm didn't follow the family tradition of joining the Royal Navy owing to his aqua-phobia. How could his aqua-phobia prevent him from joining something that didn't exist?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Stuff like Space Command, Space Central, Star Service

Space Command was clearly not simply some obsolete substitute term for Starfleet in "Court Martial" (TOS):

STONE: It's in the transcript, and computer transcripts don't lie. I'm telling you, Captain, either you accept a permanent ground assignment, or the whole disciplinary weight of Starfleet Command is going to light right on your neck.

[...]

STONE: This court is now in session. I have appointed as members of this court Space Command Representative Lindstrom, Starship Captains Krasnovsky and Chandra. Captain Kirk, I direct your attention to the fact that you have a right to ask for substitute officers if you feel that any of these named harbour any prejudiced attitudes to your case.

[...]

COMPUTER: Spock, serial number S179-276SP. Service rank, Lieutenant Commander. Position, First Officer, Science Officer. Current assignment, U.S.S. Enterprise. Commendations, Vulcanian Scientific Legion of Honor. Awards of valor. Twice decorated by Starfleet Command.

[...]

COMPUTER: Service rank, Lieutenant Commander. Position, Ship's Surgeon. Current assignment, U.S.S. Enterprise. Commendations, Legion of Honor. Awards of valor. Decorated by Starfleet surgeons.

[...]

COMPUTER: Awards of valor, Medal of Honor, Silver Palm with Cluster, Starfleet citation for Conspicuous Gallantry, Karagite Order of Heroism...

Whatever Lindstrom—who does indeed wear a Starfleet dress uniform—represents beyond or within Starfleet, it's some specific thing being distinguished from Starfleet in general and Starfleet Command in particular.

Space Central is referred to in "Miri" (TOS) as a prospective source of civilian support personnel for her planet, with no direct indication it's supposed to refer to Kirk's organization:

RAND: They were just children. Simply to leave them there with a medical team...
KIRK: Just children, three hundred years old and more. I've already contacted Space Central. They'll send teachers, advisers...
MCCOY: ...and truant officers, I presume.
KIRK: They'll be all right.

Then there's a Vulcan Space Central in "Amok Time" (TOS) that seems to be a local authority, and again clearly distinguished from Starfleet itself:

UHURA: Captain, something's coming in on the Starfleet channel. Priority and urgent, Sir.
KIRK: Put it on audio over here, Lieutenant.
UHURA: Message complete, Sir. Switching over.
STARFLEET: To Captain, U.S.S. Enterprise, from Starfleet, Sector Nine. Inauguration ceremonies, Altair VI, have been advanced seven Solar days. You are ordered to alter your flight plan to accommodate, by order of Komack, Admiral, Starfleet Command. Acknowledge.

[...]

KIRK: Lieutenant, get me Admiral Komack at Starfleet Command, Sector Nine. Pipe it down to McCoy's office.
UHURA: Starfleet Command. Yes, Sir.

[...]

KOMACK: You will proceed to Altair VI as ordered. You have your orders. Starfleet out.
MCCOY: Well, that's that.
KIRK: No, it's not. I know the Altair situation. We would be one of three starships. Very impressive, very diplomatic, but it's simply not that vital.
MCCOY: You can't go off to Vulcan against Starfleet orders...

[...]

KIRK: Open the channel, Lieutenant. Vulcan Space Central, this is the U.S.S. Enterprise requesting permission to assume standard orbit.
VULCAN: U.S.S. Enterprise from Vulcan Space Central. Permission granted. And from all of Vulcan, welcome. Is Commander Spock with you?

The single use of "Star Service"—or more likely merely "star service"—is in "Conscience Of The King" (TOS):

KIRK: Stop. Is that star service Lieutenant Kevin Riley?

This doesn't seem that odd, considering the frequent usage of "the service" as a general euphemism for Starfleet throughout the entire series, from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (TOS) to "Spectre Of The Gun" (TOS), and including the above episodes in addition to others.

We could take "the space service" in which Stiles' ancestor from "Balance Of Terror" (TOS) served during the Romulan War(s) the same way, although that might just as easily refer to something entirely other than Starfleet, like the MACOs, as well. Perhaps even a proper Space Service of the United Earth Military that followed once they'd fully made the transition to that from being a planet-based operation, for all we know, or a force of remotely-operated flying atomic bombs to combat the Romulans' own drone hordes! It's all wide open.

As for UESPA, the first time that gets brought up is in "Charlie X" in reference to the Antares, a vessel that by precious authorial intent was never originally intended to be in the same service as the Enterprise to begin with, but a parallel one. And she's specified by multiple designations in the dialogue, seemingly indicating she is a multi-role craft. She's called "a cargo vessel," "a transport ship," and a "science probe vessel," and it is this last which prompts Kirk to report her mysterious loss to UESPA Headquarters. Of course, by later references it could still be that UESPA is the civilian authority that has historically overseen all of Earth's spacegoing activities including Starfleet's (at least originally) but there is a sufficiently wide berth for any number of differing interpretations.

So where exactly is the conflict and contradiction in any of this? I'm not seeing it.

-MMoM

 

[Sci]

All I can say is that I've never heard of something that wasn't a sovereign state operating a diplomatic mission that is clearly labelled an embassy, and I've never heard of something that wasn't a sovereign state operating what is clearly a military force like Starfleet.

Saying that in the world of Star Trek, the nations of the world did not subordinate themselves to a single sovereign state called United Earth, and that United Earth did not itself then subordinate itself to a single sovereign state called the United Federation of Planets, requires ignoring an awful lot of evidence about the traits of a sovereign state and the traits possessed by ENT-era U.E. and the later-era UFP.

 

[Tenacity]

All I can say is that I've never heard of something that wasn't a sovereign state operating a diplomatic mission that is clearly labelled an embassy, and I've never heard of something that wasn't a sovereign state operating what is clearly a military force like Starfleet.

Saying that in the world of Star Trek, the nations of the world did not subordinate themselves to a single sovereign state called United Earth, and that United Earth did not itself then subordinate itself to a single sovereign state called the United Federation of Planets, requires ignoring an awful lot of evidence about the traits of a sovereign state and the traits possessed by ENT-era U.E. and the later-era UFP.

Can't say I agree.

 

[Sci]

Can't say I agree.

Yes, you've made your belief in nationalism very clear.

 

[Tenacity]

Not quite, I don't agree with your interpetation of the meaning of "united earth." Once again, there's no indication that other than a united earth space probe agency that anything associated with the term united earth exists in the 23rd centry, and not even a SPA in the 24th.

You and others have taken a passing term and stretched it, creating a imaginative storyline that isn't connected to the show.

The DS9 episode Paradise Lost could be interpeted as Earth having no indigious government at all. I don't follow that line of thought either.

What Earth has is far as government/governments is unknown and unstated.

 

[Sci]

Uh-huh. That's why there's a United Earth Embassy to Vulcan in 2154, I'm sure.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The DS9 episode Paradise Lost could be interpeted as Earth having no indigious government at all. I don't follow that line of thought either.

Then why the hell did you bring it up?

The simple fact is, if Earth has no government of its own, then Earth citizens would have no representation in the Federation. No one's seriously suggesting this is a good thing, are they? I don't care how much of a paradise Earth supposedly is, every citizen deserves representation in the government.

You can't just have the Federation running things on Earth, because there will always be times when Earth's interests don't align with those of the Federation as a whole. Citizens of Earth, just like any other Federation member world, have the absolute right to have their voices heard.

It's like Washington, DC today. DC citizens have no representation in the United States Congress (what little local government exists in DC is completely powerless, as anything they do can be overturned by the federal government on a whim), so that alone is a reason to fix things, and do it fast. In DC, the phrase 'taxation without representation' is not just a platitude - it's a literal fact. And it has to be stopped.

You'd think that the Federation would have long since realized this and eliminated such wasteful, inefficient and undemocratic things from its own structure...

 

[Tenacity]

if Earth has no government of its own, then Earth citizens would have no representation in the Federation

My position is that the show never gives any information on Earth's government, how many there are (one or many), or what form they take.

That United Earth is Earth's government is the conjecture of some of the fans. It's never spelled out in any of the series or movies.

Look, it's not that such conjectures aren't fun, they are. Many of us engage in it, but I personally don't insist that my various conjectures are somehow the only possible choice. The bits and pieces of canon I use are canon, but nothing that I try to put together with those piece is.

Sure, you can create a elaborate governmental system, from the highest near god-like ruler down to the local dog catcher.

But others (like myself) can along side your creation, invent ones of our own that in every way is it's equal. Because again it's all fan conjecture.

if I want to say that the Federation council consists of a dozen holy-people from the Federation's 12 most powerful members, sitting cross legged on ornate rugs in a dark chamber only illuminate by burning torches. That's my option, I might even gain the interest of other fans who will contribute to that idea.

That's no more or less valid than anything you invent.

You just can't insist yours is the only possible hypothetical government, because there are other fans out here..

 

[Timo]

he does state reasons why he broke the family tradition, though and instead opted for starfleet

Malcolm Reed would have made his choice before Earth became united in 2150. But regardless of that, there's no particular reason naval warfare hardware and manpower would suddenly disappear when Earth unites - but there is every reason to assume that national navies hell-bent on fighting each other cease to exist at 2150 sharp, or else 2150 is no milestone at all and Crusher's speculation in "Attached" utterly misses the mark.

We cannot use the Reed family saga as evidence that the Royal Navy would exist after 2150, as there's no support for such a thing from dialogue or inference. We can speculate on the name and nature of the organization that plies the oceans of Earth at the time of ENT (if any), but that's not something that should count in our overall argument about whether there were sovereign operators past 2150. Using it there would be circular reasoning.

As for giving people representation, there's no particular reason to channel it through a sovereign Earth. Why should the physical borders of a planet be allowed to limit the representation rights of a citizen? There are more natural borders for "local" representation in Trek, such as those between species. And we can clearly see that such borders don't respect the physical ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[oberth]

Malcolm Reed would have made his choice before Earth became united in 2150. But regardless of that, there's no particular reason naval warfare hardware and manpower would suddenly disappear when Earth unites - but there is every reason to assume that national navies hell-bent on fighting each other cease to exist at 2150 sharp, or else 2150 is no milestone at all and Crusher's speculation in "Attached" utterly misses the mark.

We cannot use the Reed family saga as evidence that the Royal Navy would exist after 2150, as there's no support for such a thing from dialogue or inference. We can speculate on the name and nature of the organization that plies the oceans of Earth at the time of ENT (if any), but that's not something that should count in our overall argument about whether there were sovereign operators past 2150. Using it there would be circular reasoning.

As for giving people representation, there's no particular reason to channel it through a sovereign Earth. Why should the physical borders of a planet be allowed to limit the representation rights of a citizen? There are more natural borders for "local" representation in Trek, such as those between species. And we can clearly see that such borders don't respect the physical ones.

Timo Saloniemi

i don't think so - when archer talks to reed sr the latter is still pissed for malcolm to join such an insignificant organisation as starfleet. that would not make any sense if the royal navy had ceased to exist by then, would it?

united earth could be a super-un mainly in charge of off-world contact and space exploration. just like you can't do trade deals with any eu-member but through the eu which does not hinder any country to have their own secretary /minister of trade.

we need to convince larry kraus to annoy someone from paramount or cbs with 'stupid' questions

@Greg Cox is there no timeline in some kind of writers' bible for star trek books?

 

[Timo]

i don't think so - when archer talks to reed sr the latter is still pissed for malcolm to join such an insignificant organisation as starfleet. that would not make any sense if the royal navy had ceased to exist by then, would it?

That's one speculative interpretation of it. All we really know, though, is that Daddy thinks Junior did wrong in breaking the family tradition. And we don't even know

1) what the tradition is, exactly - would any naval service do (including UE Navy), would any service of the Crown do (probably not, as Reed didn't choose something dry but Royal), or is the RN the only option?
2) whether it would even be possible for Malcolm to choose the RN, "now" - Sr laments the old choice specifically, rather than the current state of affairs, and generally lives in the past anyway.

Onscreen, the RN still exclusively remains a thing old-timers speak of, rather than something that is established to exist. As do all other things Royal.

Timo Saloniemi