Federation Founders

[Timo]

Yup, dialogue-wise, "United Earth" apparently only exists in "The Corbomite Maneuver" where Kirk expands USS Enterprise into United Earth Ship Enterprise...

Graphics-wise, there's no United Earth. There is a logo for Earth government, with a globe and a laurel or two, but it bears no name in any context.

If the World Government isn't named United Earth, then we might just as well conclude that this title and concept indeed were pre-WWIII things with few or no practical applications or consequences. UESPA might not feature "United Earth" at all, either - instead, it would be the Earth Space Probe Agency which just happens to be United (perhaps having absorbed ISA, NASA and a few others into a greater whole).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[uniderth]

Attached mentioned (in a hypothetical) Australia joining in 2150. You said "United Earth was formed only a few years prior in the 2150s," which is why I asked if that (was formed) was from ENT.

I knew it was in the 2150s when I wrote the post. When I looked up the quote it actually was exactly 2150.

Was 2150 the founding year of the UE, or just when Australia joined?This is never directly spelt out, at least not to my memory.

That has been debated among fandom for years, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And it's also important to note that there's no actual evidence that Australia was a holdout in joining United Earth. Crusher was just asking a hypothetical question.

For all we know, every nation was an initial signatory to United Earth. And let's be honest, it's easier that way. Logically speaking, you can't have a world government if there are any nations that aren't part of it. Otherwise, the term "United" means nothing.

 

[Tenacity]

Crusher's reference in "Attached" (TNG) is to the World Government (capitalized like that in the script, FWIW) rather than to United Earth.

While probably the same thing, Crusher's choice of words does open up the possibility that the World Government (or the world government) and the United Earth are two separate entities.

Also, if so, when did the first nations join, and did this mean they ceased to exist at that moment, just like 2150 necessarily meant Australia ceasing to exist as an independent player in wider politics?

Why would Australia (or any of world government's participants) cease to exist as a independent player?

What the world government's, or United Earth's, structure is and how much authority it has is unknown. Other than fan supposition, there is really nothing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Crusher's choice of words does open up the possibility that the World Government (or the world government) and the United Earth are two separate entities.

Actually, no, it doesn't.

Not only does it not make any logical sense (having "world government" and "United Earth" mean different things), the fact that "World Government" is capitalized in the script doesn't mean anything either. If it isn't given any special emphasis on screen, then by definition, it doesn't exist.

There's nothing that Beverly actually says in the episode that gives any indication that this phrase means anything other than, well, a generic phrase. It establishes nothing as to the actual structure of Earth government, up to and including its name.

And again, Beverly's comments do NOT prove that Australia ever refused to join United Earth at any time. She was just giving an example. "What if one of the old nation-states...Australia, for example..." That is literally all that she said.

 

[Tenacity]

Otherwise, the term "United" means nothing.

Not all nations on Earth are members of the United Nations, still uses the term united.

And again, Beverly's comments do NOT prove that Australia ever refused to join United Earth at any time

Personally, I never thought that her comments meant that.

Although, there's no telling whether or not if Australia (or any other nation) refused to join prior to when they eventually did. That would be a unknown.

Perhaps they held out for years (prior to 2150) in order to get their ambassadors closer to the front of the assembly hall, and not in the back of the room.

There's nothing that Beverly actually says in the episode that gives any indication that this phrase means anything other than, well, a generic phrase.

There's nothing in Captain Kirk conversation with Captain Christopher that indicates that "United Earth" is the Earth's planetary government.

Booyah.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Actually, no, it doesn't.

Of course it does. Again, we have references to both a "United Earth" and to the beginnings of a "world government" that each significantly precede what Crusher is talking about, but which do not coincide to the same period.

And again, Beverly's comments do NOT prove that Australia ever refused to join United Earth at any time. She was just giving an example. "What if one of the old nation-states...Australia, for example..." That is literally all that she said.

I don't think anyone is disputing that.

Crusher's counterfactual implies that in fact multiple nation-states joined this World Government (which may or may not be the proper name of that which governs United Earth) in 2150, and that Australia was one of them. But it does not necessarily imply that none had already done so before this point. Indeed, we know that the process leading up to this end had already begun with the European Hegemony earlier in the century. So Australia may have been a "holdout" in the same sense as whatever other nations joined in 2150 were, but clearly not unique in this.

-MMoM

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Yup, dialogue-wise, "United Earth" apparently only exists in "The Corbomite Maneuver" where Kirk expands USS Enterprise into United Earth Ship Enterprise...

Graphics-wise, there's no United Earth. There is a logo for Earth government, with a globe and a laurel or two, but it bears no name in any context.

United Earth Embassy, "The Forge" (ENT):

Staffed by personnel attached to the United Earth Diplomatic Corps (who may or may not also be part of Starfleet based on the uniform; the script doesn't specify):

United Earth Military, Star Trek Beyond (also referred to in dialogue, IIRC):

-MMoM

 

[Sci]

Star Trek fandom's ability to seize upon ridiculous pedantry to avoid the obvious -- whether it be that United Earth is the name of the planetary state created through the unification of the world under a single government, or that the Federation is an interstellar state created through the unification of many planets under a single government -- never ceases to amaze and amuse.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

^I find it equally amazing (but seldom amusing) that so many fans fail so utterly to appreciate the "obvious" nuances and ambiguities in what's been shown and said on screen, and moreover seem to arbitrarily decide certain references are simply to be ignored as "outliers" or discounted as "early installment weirdness" instead of duly considered and incorporated into the overall picture!

Another wrinkle to be taken note of in this discussion (or not, whatever) are references to "the Earth Federation" in "Friday's Child" (TOS) and "The Lorelei Signal" (TAS)!

-MMoM

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Another wrinkle to be taken note of in this discussion (or not, whatever) are references to "the Earth Federation" in "Friday's Child" (TOS) and "The Lorelei Signal" (TAS)!

The relevant term being "or not". There were a LOT of names for the government (and the military) that got tossed around and ultimately forgotten in the early days of TOS. Stuff like Space Command, Space Central, Star Service, Earth Federation, etc.

Ultimately, they decided on the "United Federation of Planets" and "Starfleet". And once that was done, those terms became definitive (and retroactive). As did "United Earth".

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The relevant term being "or not". There were a LOT of names for the government (and the military) that got tossed around and ultimately forgotten in the early days of TOS. Stuff like Space Command, Space Central, Star Service, Earth Federation, etc.

Ultimately, they decided on the "United Federation of Planets" and "Starfleet". And once that was done, those terms became definitive (and retroactive). As did "United Earth".

Except those references came after "United Federation of Planets" had already been used multiple times!

And why can't there be all sorts of inter-agency and inter-jurisdictional entanglements up into Kirk's time, holdovers from the long history of Earth and its various colonies, and other members and theirs? Why do you want to reduce it all to something neat and simple and uniform instead of messy and complicated and inscrutable? The latter is often more interesting and leaves open more storytelling possibilities. I don't know why everything needs to be put in a tidy little box.

UFP members clearly retain some level of their own autonomous governance in TOS and associated movies. Look at Ardana and Vulcan! What came to be settled and standardized later (to whatever extent it was, that is) in Picard's time needn't have all been that way from the beginning. Things can have remained in flux for a long time, both leading up to the initial founding and following it. The references are there to support that. But no, we've got to only pay attention to what fits in that tidy little box and throw out the rest. Phooey I say! Phooey!

-MMoM

 

[Sci]

^I find it equally amazing (but seldom amusing) that so many fans fail so utterly to appreciate the "obvious" nuances and ambiguities in what's been shown and said on screen, and moreover seem to arbitrarily decide certain references are simply to be ignored as "outliers" or discounted as "early installment weirdness" instead of duly considered and incorporated into the overall picture!

Couple too many "James R. Kirk" type situations to take every piece of throwaway jargon in early TOS as canonically binding.

 

[Tenacity]

whether it be that United Earth is the name of the planetary state created through the unification of the world under a single government

For majority of Trek's 23rd and all of the 24th centuries it just "Earth," with United Earth being the rare mention. A small number of mentions during TOS, the dedication plate of the Enterprise B, ENT, and the alternate Abram's universe.

Where are you getting " United Earth is the name of the planetary state created through the unification of the world under a single government?"

Because it's not from the show.

And once that was done, those terms became definitive (and retroactive). As did "United Earth".

I will concede that during ENT (and only during that brief time period of the 22nd century) United Earth had some functions outsie of a space probe agency.

But how do you get from that to it's the sole planetary sovereign government of all of Earth? And that all the national governments of the time surrendered their sovereignty to it?

Don't get me wrong, it's a interesting fanwank supposition.

But inside of canon (oh, there's that word) there nothing after ENT that anything other that the United Earth Space Probe Agency still exists.

Couple too many "James R. Kirk" type situations to take every piece of throwaway jargon in early TOS as canonically binding.

In TOS there's no indication that United Earth is the name of a governing body, Kirk reports the destruction of a freighter to the UESPA, and separately refers to the UESPA as "our authority," but that's hardly "Earth's government."

UESPA also had something to do with the construction of the Enterprise B.

In the 23rd centuries, there's no indication that outside of the UESPA that anything labeled United Earth even exists.

Where do we hear (in the 23rd century) United Earth being mentioned separate from a Space Probe Agency?

In the 24th century, where do we hear United Earth at all?

 

[Guy Gardener]

The NAACP.

Some names linger on well past when they are acceptable.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Where do we hear (in the 23rd century) United Earth being mentioned separate from a Space Probe Agency?

In the 24th century, where do we hear United Earth at all?

To be fair, the showrunners of all Trek shows have deliberately avoided even showing Earth AT ALL unless absolutely necessary. It simply isn't important. We know the names, but that's it - United Earth exists, but they're not going to show it because that's not what the show is about. Trek is about the Federation, and the inner workings of government just aren't a priority.

It's probably why the mentioning of United Earth forces being "federalized" by Jaresh-Inyo were cut from the Homefront/Paradise Lost arc.

As for UESPA - why would the name of a government include the words "space probe agency"? That does not make a ton of sense.

 

[Tenacity]

As for UESPA - why would the name of a government include the words "space probe agency"?

It's wouldn't, that's the point. United Earth isn't the name of a government.

Claiming United Earth is the government of Earth is a fan creation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Claiming United Earth is the government of Earth is a fan creation.

ENT’s “The Forge” proved otherwise.

 

[Tenacity]

^ You meant the United Earth diplomatic corps? Yeah, whatever happen to that, because we never hear of it again. By the time of TOS the only thing employing the term United Earth is the UESPA.

And then there's this,
https://www.loc.gov/item/oem2002008516/PP/
https://www.loc.gov/item/oem2002008516/PP/

And that example of the use of diplomatic corps wasn't even connected to the modern body that uses the term United Nation, it's the previous use of the term United Nations used during the early 1940's.

There being a diplomatic corps of United Earth doesn't get you United Earth being the sole planetary sovereign government of all of Earth, and that all the national governments surrendered their sovereignty to it.

It's any enormous leap.

Modern Humanity has never (obviously) sent diplomats to a alien planet, if sent today, what would we call such a group?

A corps of diplomats?

 

[Timo]

Hmh? The ENT Embassy banner makes it rather unambiguous that the name of the World Government on Earth at that time is "United Earth" (or something containing those two words so that the name can be recognizably abbreviated to United Earth for purposes of patriotic identification). The interpretations differing from that all have major problems:

1) Earth at that time is not united, and merely has a united embassy for its many players, hence the name:

- But ENT shows a single government in action basically across the globe, with a single set of Ministers and assorted agencies quoted, and without any nations ever associated with these offices and agencies.
- No sort of divided representation is evident at Vulcan, either.
- And the whole point of Crusher's speech in "Attached" was that a world in the Federation must speak with a single voice, so using a divided Earth as an example there would be inane.

2) Earth at that time is united, but under some name other than United Earth:

- Where does the "United" bit in the embassy banner come from, then? If Earth is united, it cannot have embassies other than the united sort, so the word would be redundant and unnecessarily duplicating information as well, too.

3) Earth is united under many competing names, and United Earth only applies to the embassy but not to other bits:

- Why go byzantine when there's no real need to?
- That is, we never hear of any competing name.

Of course, Earth's world government may have changed names a dozen times after this. But that's relatively uninteresting, and only really touches upon the question of whether the UE in UESPA refers (or originally referred) to a politically united Earth (or a pious wish thereof) or merely to a unified space probe agency.

Why would Australia (or any of world government's participants) cease to exist as a independent player?

Being "world government participant" would mean exactly that, obviously. If the representative of Australia rose from his seat and told the Vulcans that his nation wants to sign this separate deal for the plomeek import rights, the UE Chairman would just extend the telescopic arm of her gavel, clobber the Aussie to silence, and say "Excuse us, Ms. Ambassador, Earth speaks with one voice, which we will use once the honored representative of one of our municipalities comes to and can cast his humble vote".

I mean, that was the whole reason Crusher brought up Earth of 2150: to contrast it against KesPrytt and its inability to vote for a single unified stance on interstellar matters.

What the world government's, or United Earth's, structure is and how much authority it has is unknown. Other than fan supposition, there is really nothing.

Except the knowledge that Earth, united, speaks with a single voice.

Unless we assume Crusher was doubly hypothetical there, positing both that Earth would diverge from the entry requirements of the UFP, and that Earth would have to mind UFP entry requirements to begin with. Perhaps Earth is famed for not meeting the current entry requirements and only having been grandfathered in? But that would be fame from outside Star Trek, as the shows themselves never suggest Earth would have multiple voices in any era of its UFP membership, or even the immediately preceding ENT era.

Timo Saloniemi