Spoilers Supergirl - Season 3

[Christopher]

And Clark's easy acknowledgment of her victory could show some posters here how men of confidence and character react to strong women.

Yes. I always find it so laughable how MRA types think that it's a sign of masculine strength to be utterly terrified by the prospect of women being strong too. No, it's a sign of weakness and cowardice, because genuinely strong people don't feel threatened by the strengths of others.

And as Sam reminded Ruby, the symbol that both Superman and Supergirl wear on their chests means "Stronger Together." So it's not a competition. Real strength comes from respecting and reinforcing the strengths of others.

 

[The Realist]

Just listen to some of Cat's dialogue--like when Linda Carter and Teri Hatcher were going back and forth, and she interrupted and made some comment about how these women were acting like men. I don't have the exact quote available, but that was a poster comment for misandry.

I dunno, as a man I just chuckled at the truth of it. We do have our foibles as a gender, you know. And I'm not much interested in playing the game where, as a man (and an old white one, to boot), I'm a victim of prejudice and oppression because somebody makes a joke.

As for Superman being "submissive and weak," again, recognizing Kara's victory was nothing of the sort. Beyond showing grace and humility (not synonyms for weakness and submission, BTW), it was also a simple statement of objective fact.

 

[dahj]

This might be a tedious discussion to you

This wasn't directed at me, but let me explain why this is tedious to me.

The thing is, this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum, it's happening in a world where women have been underrepresented in media for decades, both behind and in front of cameras. And it's not just Supergirl, any time a woman steps up to the spotlight these days there's an inevitable reactionary backlash from men who see it as an assault on their manhood or something.

Let's say you genderswapped all the characters on Supergirl, have the show be about Superman, his brother Alex, his best friend Lenny... fighting baddies with the help of some women, a stern boss of a secret government agency Joan Joanz, smart hacker-lady Winn(ifred), his "will they, won't they" girlfriend Monnie-El(also superpowered), head of a media company Jamie who part-times it as a costumed hero Guardianess, and that he also had a cousin in another city who occasionally showed up. That show would be lauded for great and diverse representation of women, and all these complaints wouldn't happen because it's expected that the male hero of the show can solve whichever problem is hurled at him mainly on his own. How do I know this? Because there has been, and there currently are, a whole bunch of shows like that.

But because it's the other way round here and women are the leads, while men are the helpers, not a week goes by without someone complaining how the show diminishes and disrespects men somehow, how Supergirl is arrogant, how she shouldn't win, how men should get to do more, and yadda yadda yadda...

And I can totally understand why you might not be able to see the double standard being employed here, because movies and TV have been conditioning people for ages that men do stuff and women(if there are any) help (at best, usually they're only there to be protected, conquered or just to look good). What I don't understand is why do you guys just dig in deeper when the hypocrisy of fighting for "equality" on this of all shows is pointed out to you...

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The Enterprise was half a galaxy away. Superman was half a second. Presumably, the Enterprise fought in the Dominion War.

Good point. It's already being ignored or placed in the spin machine.

Something that could easily be mentioned. And yes, if there is something this devastating going on, Superman would be there even if Kara doesn't want it because she has a chip on her shoulder.

Family does that.

Moreover, the threat--covered by the news (meaning it cannot be ignored) was Kryptonian in nature (the symbols), so of all people to respond in addition to SG, it should have been Superman. Superman not being an early, interested responder was more of the selective BS coughed up by the showrunners.

Nobody asks why Supergirl isn't constantly flying to Metropolis to help Superman.

This series and specific plot just so happens to be where the action is set, and Superman is a part of the series...along with The aforementioned fact that any Kryptonian threat would capture his attention like the world's biggest red alert.

And in general, character fighting their own battles in their own titles is just Super-Hero Comics 101.

If that was true, the crossover comic--a concept more than 70 years old, along with the team-up titles created in the Silver - Modern Ages--would not take up a large, significant part of printed superhero history.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Moreover, the threat--covered by the news (meaning it cannot be ignored) was Kryptonian in nature (the symbols), so of all people to respond in addition to SG, it should have been Superman. Superman not being an early, interested responder was more of the selective BS coughed up by the showrunners.

The episode could easily have adressed this without a Superman cameo. Just have Kara get a text from Clark asking if she needs any help and Kara texts back "thanks but I got this". Then the audience knows that Superman is aware of the threat and offered to help but Kara declined.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The thing is, this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum, it's happening in a world where women have been underrepresented in media for decades, both behind and in front of cameras. And it's not just Supergirl, any time a woman steps up to the spotlight these days there's an inevitable reactionary backlash from men who see it as an assault on their manhood or something.

You are generalizing.

But because it's the other way round here and women are the leads, while men are the helpers, not a week goes by without someone complaining how the show diminishes and disrespects men somehow, how Supergirl is arrogant, how she shouldn't win, how men should get to do more, and yadda yadda yadda...

You are sidestepping the point: contrary to a certain, current political strain's woeful misunderstanding, equality is never achieved by imbalacing the scales in the opposite direction. As a minority, I've been on the up and down of that situation all of my life, so this is no academic eexercise for me, or an inexperienced talking point from that aforementioned political strain. Supergirl is in no way some honest attempt to show genders on an equal level (what the series should have been doing from the start) with so many examples proving the opposite of what you're saying.

As noted yesterday, notice how this series' kind of unrealistic one-sided "world building" was not necessary in Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice / Justice League, where Wonder Woman did not need to be made superior to Superman in order to appear powerful/wise. Like the comics, female characters stand out like all others, but not at the expense of male characters. The same applies to the MCU, where characters such as Wanda and Valkyrie are formidable--but they operate on their own terms, defining and proving themselves, without any need for the producers to constantly reduce their male counterparts to weak and or ineffectual background players in an attempt to raise their profiles as heroines or characters of importance.

That is how characters should be presented. No agenda. No double-standard, but presenting characters as they are meant to be, and if that happens to be super-powerful...or just a John or Jane Q. Public, its fine (as it is in reality), but for anyone (not meaning you) to consciously believe the fight against old systems and/or advocates of unfair treatment means doing employing the same methods (which is exactly what's happening in SG) only leads to the conclusion that some are so agenda-driven, that committing the same crimes is fine--if it works in their favor. I'm never going to BS myself into ignoring how unethical that is.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The episode could easily have adressed this without a Superman cameo. Just have Kara get a text from Clark asking if she needs any help and Kara texts back "thanks but I got this". Then the audience knows that Superman is aware of the threat and offered to help but Kara declined.

Very easy solution. I acknowledged (yesterday) that this is only "round one" in the Reign saga, so who knows, Superman might get a call, but it would still make no sense for Clark to not instantly race to the scene of a well-covered, growing threat connected to his own heritage.

 

[Greg Cox]

On other fronts, it's odd that they haven't established that Saturn Girl is a telepath yet. Winn describes the Legion as a "Legion of Super-Heroes," but Imra hasn't demonstrated any super-powers yet.

 

[Finn]

^at least not on screen...

 

[Scout101]

nope, just super hot so far. Assuming there's additional powers we'll see later...

And agree that they need an occasional throwaway line about why Superman (or any other existing Justice League characters I suppose) aren't available. Not every second, and she shouldn't be calling Superman to open jars for her. Fully expect her to handle her own city and rogue gallery, etc. When you try to ramp up the show's drama by having world-ending catastrophes, though, it's a stretch that no one is interested in lending a hand.

Just dialog fixes most of it. Got an alien invasion? Superman's busy dealing with the battles in HIS city; Kara's got hers. When a Kryptonian named the World Killer shows up, that ought to catch Clark's interest, though. Fine with her thinking she can handle it and telling him to stand by, but that it crosses no one's mind is odd.

She's gotta star in her own show, but downside of a shared universe and all that is that you're acknowledging all those other heroes that exist and could be helping, but ignoring why they aren't around. Yes, similar problems with other franchises (Iron Man could have used a hand in IM3, for example, and it was international news so everyone had heard), but this is the one we're talking about now...

 

[Kirk Prime]

I dunno, as a man I just chuckled at the truth of it. We do have our foibles as a gender, you know. And I'm not much interested in playing the game where, as a man (and an old white one, to boot), I'm a victim of prejudice and oppression because somebody makes a joke.

I think if you reversed the stereotypes, and had a man make a comment stereotyping women, like say that old "I Love Lucy" episode where Lucy and Ethyl went to work, and it ended with them agreeing that men should make the money and women should spend it, there would be major backlash, joke or not.

In the context of the show, Cat was not making a joke. She was making a serious statement. The attitudes of the writers are reflected in the writing. "Women good, men bad" is not really the way to go, and in the same episode, they did the whole ridiculous Superman loses fairly to Supergirl. That's not equality at all.

This wasn't directed at me, but let me explain why this is tedious to me.

The thing is, this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum, it's happening in a world where women have been underrepresented in media for decades, both behind and in front of cameras. And it's not just Supergirl, any time a woman steps up to the spotlight these days there's an inevitable reactionary backlash from men who see it as an assault on their manhood or something..

Here's the thing--no matter what they do on this show, Superman is still the top dog, and has been for years. That isn't going to change, and by writing what they wrote, all they did was lower Superman, not raise Supergirl.


A true woman hero isn't that way because she can beat Superman--it's because of how she conducts herself. Compare Supergirl to Wonder Woman, which empowered Wonder Woman without lowering any male character. Wonder Woman is clearly physically superior to Steve Trevor, but Steve Trevor wasn't some "gentleman in distress," and wasn't lessened to make Wonder Woman look better.

But Superman is the top hero--and if he loses, there is a reason. Having him beaten and running around saying to anyone who listened that Kara is superior is terrible writing. It doesn't make Kara look good, it makes the writers look bad.

The writers cannot erase 8 decades of Superman. I will add that it's not that Kara beat a man--it's that she beat SUPERMAN. If she had the same battle with J'onn, or even Zod, it would be fine--but writing Superman that way is a no no.

The episode could easily have adressed this without a Superman cameo. Just have Kara get a text from Clark asking if she needs any help and Kara texts back "thanks but I got this". Then the audience knows that Superman is aware of the threat and offered to help but Kara declined.

It wouldn't be the strongest situation, but it would work. SOMETHING. Another idea is that whenever they do a story like that, have a simultaneous threat in Metropolis that Clark is dealing with that is equally important. Reign is in National City? Maybe Mongul is threatening Metropolis.

 

[Christopher]

And agree that they need an occasional throwaway line about why Superman (or any other existing Justice League characters I suppose) aren't available. Not every second, and she shouldn't be calling Superman to open jars for her. Fully expect her to handle her own city and rogue gallery, etc. When you try to ramp up the show's drama by having world-ending catastrophes, though, it's a stretch that no one is interested in lending a hand.

And when there has been a potential world-ending catastrophe on this show, they generally have either included Superman or explained his absence. What I don't get is why this is coming up now, because what was in this episode was nowhere near that level. Sure, Kara was getting ominous warnings about "the Worldkiller," but all that actually happened in the episode besides talk was that someone started tagging the city with a weird symbol and killing off a handful of criminals, and then she got in a fight with Supergirl. Until Reign actually won said fight, there was absolutely nothing in this episode to suggest that Supergirl and the DEO couldn't handle the matter by themselves as usual. So why is this even being brought up? It's completely incongruous in this context. Like I said, if Superman were to get involved, there's no reason why it would happen until the next episode, in response to his cousin's injuries.

When a Kryptonian named the World Killer shows up, that ought to catch Clark's interest, though.

Remember, Kara and J'onn dismissed Coville as a fraud, fabricating the Worldkiller story in order to create a narrative that made him and his beliefs relevant. They were looking into it, but they weren't just assuming he was telling the truth. And again, Kara is far more familiar with Kryptonian culture than Clark is, because she actually has firsthand memories of Krypton. There is no reason why she would ask him for advice about a Kryptonian matter, or even expect him to be interested, given that he's culturally more Terran than Kryptonian (and even neurologically, as Max Lord explained in the first season finale).

 

[The Old Mixer]

Moreover, the threat--covered by the news (meaning it cannot be ignored) was Kryptonian in nature (the symbols), so of all people to respond in addition to SG, it should have been Superman. Superman not being an early, interested responder was more of the selective BS coughed up by the showrunners.

This series and specific plot just so happens to be where the action is set, and Superman is a part of the series...along with The aforementioned fact that any Kryptonian threat would capture his attention like the world's biggest red alert.

Really? How many times did he come running in Season 1 when all the Fort Rozz Kryptonians were running around?

If that was true, the crossover comic--a concept more than 70 years old, along with the team-up titles created in the Silver - Modern Ages--would not take up a large, significant part of printed superhero history.

And this series participates in such crossovers, including Superman appearances. But just like in the comics, when there's not a crossover or special guest appearance going on, heroes handle their own problems in their own cities.

 

[doylem1]

Question regarding Superman and Supergirl
If both of them have absorbed the exact same amount of solar radiation and its the solar radiation they have stored that grants them their invulnerability and super strength. Exactly how much of advantage or how much would Superman's extra muscle mass/weight and height come into the equasion in a fight ?


My opinion on these 2 characters is Superman is slightly stronger and more durable, with Supergirl being slightly faster and more agile, with their other abilities such as heat vision/super breath/hearing being equal. The differences however in the abilities they best each other in are very close.

 

[DarKush]

You're forgetting -- Kal-El was an infant when he left Krypton. Kara was a pre-teen. Of the two, she has immensely more Kryptonian knowledge than he does. He's the one who'd come to her for help with a Kryptonian-history problem, not the other way around.

You're assuming what I know and don't know. Sure Kara has more physical knowledge and connection of Krypton and its peoples and culture than Kal-El has. And I would assume she has more book knowledge about Krypton, up to a point. I am assuming she was a dutiful student and is pretty well versed in Kryptonian history as well. But that doesn't mean that during her long time in stasis that Kal-El, with the assistance of the Fortress of Solitude didn't bone up on learning about Krypton's history and science either.

Further, Superman is the more experienced fighter and at this point has likely faced villains on Reign's level or close to it, and could be of help. The idea that you eschew his help still doesn't make sense to me.

 

[DarKush]

Which is a good argument for her not needing to pester Superman.


Given how many Kryptonians were running around on Earth in Season 1, I don't think that would set off much of a red flag in this setting.

Fair point about the DEO but we didn't see them involved either which made no sense to not include Martian Manhunter. The larger point is that Supergirl does get help sometimes, just like the other CW heroes, so the idea of not calling in Superman makes little sense.

Though I don't agree with Christopher's position on this I will say his speculation that Superman will be mentioned or factor into the next episode would make sense, especially since that wasn't adequately addressed in the winter finale. Now that there is no doubt this threat the idea that Superman is not brought up-if only to explain why he can't do it or isn't around-checks a box. Personally I think that Superman will not appear and the focus will be on the Legion attempting to stop Reign, and getting trounced, and Supergirl coming out of her coma to take Reign down. As far as I'm concerned a mention of why he's absent works for me. Though I would be okay with a quick CGI or his boots or edge of his cape as well.

Fair point as well about the Kryptonians from Season 1. Though Reign seems like she's a different breed, a higher threat than an average Kryptonian. That being said, the dialogue in the episode mostly just referred to her as Kryptonian, though that was muddled by also the Kryptonian mysticism used to explain who/what Reign was.

Also, I just remembered that Superman actually did get involved at the end of season 1.

 

[Christopher]

You're assuming what I know and don't know. Sure Kara has more knowledge, physical knowledge and connection of Krypton and its peoples and culture than Kal-El has. I am assuming she was a dutiful student and is pretty well versed in Kryptonian history as well. But that doesn't mean that during her long time in stasis that Kal-El, with the assistance of the Fortress of Solitude didn't bone up on learning about Krypton's history and science either.

It doesn't mean he did, though. What offends me is that you're evidently starting with the premise that Supergirl should be dependent on Superman's help and trying to make up excuses to justify it. I can't help but hear that as kneejerk chauvinism.

Further, Superman is the more experienced fighter and at this point has likely faced villains on Reign's level or close to it, and could be of help. The idea that you eschew his help still doesn't make sense to me.

I explained that. Those arguments would make sense for the next episode. If Superman showed up when the show returned in January, after Kara had been beaten up and placed in a coma, that would make sense. But there's no legitimate, non-sexist reason to think that Kara would've rushed to Clark for help with something that, as far as she knew at the time, was basically just large-scale vandalism and some untrustworthy religious hoodoo from Coville. This was not a superhero-teamup-level problem until the end of the episode.

Besides, if Supergirl had wanted to call someone for help with the fight, the Martian Manhunter is her boss.

 

[DarKush]

Christopher,


I ask that you don’t resort to name calling simply because I don’t agree with you. That’s really uncalled for. It’s not that serious. And I feel like you are trying to use an insult as a bullying tactic to stifle discussion.


I didn’t say Supergirl should be dependent on Superman, but that he should be involved for a threat on Reign’s level (which the episode showed Supergirl couldn’t handle) or at least Kara or DEO should consider bringing him in, not just bringing up his name to dismiss it. Getting help is not the same thing as being dependent.


I mentioned Martian Manhunter in a previous post, but you seem not to have read that or were so chomping at the bit to respond that it slipped your mind. Is there something about Superman that triggers an adverse reaction in you? Was Man of Steel traumatic or something? Or maybe you are afraid that is Superman does show up it will overshadow Kara.


Personally, I think you have a preconceived notion in your head on the Superman involvement/non-involvement issue that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a chauvinist or MRA or whatever.


I would like you to find the word depend anywhere in my statements here. And for any other statements I’ve made about the Supergirl show. I’ve never said that Superman should be in every episode, ever. I’ve clearly said that this is Kara’s show, but you ignore that because it doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas about what I think, because you seem to be such an expert on what I think or know when it comes to the CW shows.


Reign is a special threat here, one tied to Kryptonian history and mythology and the idea that Superman should not even be considered, that to mention it, is chauvinist or sexist is hyperventilating. And I did see merit in what you had posted before, and acknowledged it as such in my reply to The Old Building & Loan. However, I would have placed his involvement in this episode, so I see it as an issue where we disagree primarily on placement.


IMO, you selectively read what I write and then just go off on that, and I’m thinking to myself, did he not read my full statements? What in the world. In any event, I advise less hyperventilating and less assumption making.

 

[Christopher]

Is there something about Superman that triggers an adverse reaction in you? Was Man of Steel traumatic or something? Or maybe you are afraid that is Superman does show up it will overshadow Kara.

Oh, that's rich. You accuse me of namecalling and then you sink to this. I've been a Superman fan all my life. But I'm not a fan of male bias. I've explained my reasoning already and I'm not going to let you drag me deeper into this. I'm done.

 

[DarKush]

Oh, that's rich. You accuse me of namecalling and then you sink to this. I've been a Superman fan all my life. But I'm not a fan of male bias. I've explained my reasoning already and I'm not going to let you drag me deeper into this. I'm done.

That's fine by me. You insult me and then you take umbrage. I posted my thoughts on the episode and you chose to comment on them (which is your right of course), but that necessitated a reply on my part (which is my right). And then you get huffy when I call you on the assumptions you're making about me which of course you can't prove. Far as I'm concerned this conversation between us is done.