Federation Founders

[Ethros]

If ENT had continued past s4, I'd have like to have seen some exploration of what places like Alpha Centauri, Vega Colony and Mars even were. Whether they were still alligned with United Earth or if any had become totally seperate. Then that could explain a difference between Earth and Alpha Centauri founding the UFP

 

[JesterFace]

Federation... Founders...
I'm sorry, I just had to, this is what a Federation Founder might look like.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Might also be Vulcans stayed out of the nonsense initially, like the US from the League of Nations. Sure, they were present when the Charter was signed, but only to sneer at it.

SF: Year One is at odds with ENT how? With the later books, perhaps, but ENT? That the serious military skippers don't mention the butterfly catcher Archer at all is more or less to be expected...

TImo Saloniemi

Their versions of the Romulan war are very different, as I remember -- the ships were very primitive, without video communications. I remember it seemed like reading about WW1 submarine combat.

 

[Timo]

Just like "Balance of Terror", SF:Y1 can be read as the ships merely maintaining communications silence...

...Especially when making a days-long penetration run against Cheron deep inside enemy space.

Of course, SF:Y1 is also the story of a very specific bunch of skippers flying only a single class of ships. A similar story about the skippers of Buckley escorts or Typ VII U-boats in WWII would nicely hide the existence of battleships, "real" destroyers or aircraft carriers.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Might also be Vulcans stayed out of the nonsense initially, like the US from the League of Nations. Sure, they were present when the Charter was signed, but only to sneer at it.

This is contradicted by the ENT episode “Zero Hour,” which explicitly establishes Vulcans as being one of four founding cultures (the others being Humans, Andorians, and Tellarites).

SF: Year One is at odds with ENT how? With the later books, perhaps, but ENT? That the serious military skippers don't mention the butterfly catcher Archer at all is more or less to be expected...

It’s been a long time since I read Starfleet: Year One, but the big differences are:

• No such thing as the United Earth Starfleet before the founding of the Federation
• Transporters not yet invented
• More cultures founding the Federation than “Zero Hour” establishes
• United Earth has larger space force than ENT establishes

The "big four" might have been the only full members at first, with others species being associate members.

I hear that term thrown around sometimes, but I’m honestly not sure where it comes from. I’m not aware of any source for it in the canon or in the novels.

Personally, I think the idea of “partial membership” or “associate membership” in the Federation makes about as much sense as “partial” or “associate” membership in the Federal Republic of Germany. You’re either in or you’re out.

And others species (at their own request) initially having the status of observers.

I mean, is there a sovereign state in this world that has the status of “observer” to the German Bundestag? There aren’t—other sovereign states send ambassadors, not observers.

I think Earth, Andorians, Tellarites, and Vulcanians are pretty standard. I include Alpha Centauri as a human colony. But everyone seems to forget Mars. I don't see how Earth could join and not Mars, though that would be quite interesting.

The ENT novel Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures by TrekBBS’s own Christopher L. Bennett establishes that the Confederated Martian Colonies was the sixth Federation Member State to join, entering the Federation about six months after its founding as the first new member. But yeah, apparently before that the Federation and Mars had to divide up which parts of the Sol system were part of which sovereign state’s territory (just like United Earth and the CMC had had to divide it up before then).

And is the Moon considered it's own world or is it a United Earth annex?

I don’t believe this has ever been addressed in the canon or in the novels, but the reference book Star Trek: Star Charts by then-ENT (and later Star Trek Into Darkness) graphics artist Gregory Mandel establishes that Luna is a political subdivision of United Earth. So presumably, Lunar residents vote for representatives in both the United Earth Parliament and for the Federation Councillor for United Earth, the same way, for instance, residents of Long Island vote for both representatives in the New York State Legislature and for the United States Senators for the State of New York.

I think the number of founding "world's" is going to be much higher than founding "species."

If we’re gonna speak formally, I don’t think we should speak in terms of “species” or “worlds;” it would make more sense to speak specifically in terms of a polity, especially since a polity that joins the Federation may have multiple planetary bodies under its jurisdiction (e.g., Tuvok being born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony) or may have a population comprised of multiple species (e.g., Earth being established in VOY to have large non-Human populations).

The UFP may well be just a renamed Coalition of Planets. If so, many of the entrants (bar 6) are listed HERE

I think that seems unlikely. For one thing, the Coalition was founded in 2155, but “Zero Hour” establishes that the Federation was founded in 2161. Certainly it seems likely the UFP grew out of the Coalition. The ENT Romulan War novels establish that the Coalition faltered when the Earth-Romulus War began, but the Federation was founded after the war to avoid the problems that had splintered the Coalition (in the same way the United States Constitution was ratified to replace the Articles of Confederation).

I wouldn't be surprised if all the smaller planets around the 'Big four' started joining in the years after the initial formation as a way to be protected from larger more aggressive powers. Especially when the Romulans started seeming threatening. Like, "I have no choice here but to take a side, I can go with the Empire that will insist on absolute political control, or I can go with the alliance full of democracies with a doctrine of sovereignty, hmmmmmm...."

In general principle, I agree, except that both ENT and TOS’s “Balance of Terror” seem to imply that the Earth-Romulus War was fought before the Federation was founded.

It would help if we knew what membership means in the 23rd and 24th century context - perhaps it would mean the same in the 22nd, allowing us to judge who might join and who might not.

If, say, Earth wanted to join, would that mean that every member of Homo sapiens would become a member, under the same representative(s)?

Well, first off, a person cannot be a Federation member. Membership is about the polity, not the individual; I think the word you want to use is citizen.

Second: I see no reason to assume that United Earth’s membership in the Federation means that every Human is a Federation citizen, any more than I see Sicily’s membership in the Italian Republic as evidence that every ethnic Sicilian in the world is an Italian citizen.

Would the Moon have to file a separate petition if it wanted to join?

I imagine that if Luna wanted to join as a separate Federation Member State in its own right, it would have go to through a process similar to that undertaken by the State of Maine (which was split off from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts) or the State of West Virginia (which was split off from the Commonwealth of Virginia) when they joined the United States as separate states. It would probably have to file a petition, have its own constitution ready to go, hold a referendum demonstrating a democratic mandate for separate Federation membership status, and get the consent of the Federation Council and possibly of the United Earth Parliament.

I wonder if the Federation has a minimum (or maximum?) population requirement for UFP Member States?

Would the Vega Colony have to file a petition if it wanted not to join?

I imagine that if Vega Colony was still a political subdivision of United Earth when United Earth voted to join, then Vega Colony would have to achieve political independence from United Earth and become its own sovereign state to avoid being part of the UFP.

Would the Denobulans living on Earth be part of the Earth membership or the putative Denobulan one? What about humans who held Tellarite citizenship and lived on one of Tellar's colonies?

If Earth, Denobula, and Tellar are all Federation Member States, I see no reason why people from any one world residing permanently on one of the others would not be considered part of the population of that new world they’re living on and no longer part of the population of the world they were from. You don’t get to vote for members of the Ohio General Assembly or for the United States Senators for the State of Ohio if you move to the State of Maryland.

If Beta Kuppa Java became a human colony after the joining, would it automatically be part of the Earth membership?

I think it would depend on which legal entity the colony is organized under, wouldn’t it? Like, if it’s organized as a United Earth project based on a charter issued by the United Earth government to a group intending to start the colony, then probably it is considered part of United Earth, U.E. law applies, its residents can vote in elections for the United Earth Parliament, and its residents votes are counted with all other U.E. residents’ votes for the Federation Councillor for United Earth. If the colonial charter was issued by the Andorian Empire, same thing even if the particular colonists are all Humans—the colony would be part of the Andorian Empire, Andorian law would apply, residents could vote in elections for the Parliament Andoria, and residents’ votes would count in elections for the Federation Councillor for the Andorian Empire.

I wonder if the Federation government issues its own direct colonial charters? In which case, such colonies may be Federation territory and Federation law may apply, but the colony itself as a political entity may not get representation in the Federation Council until such time as it becomes a full Member in its own right.

That would depend on the status of the colonies, whether they were independent "sovereign states" or under direct rule of their homeworld.

In general, yes, except I think we need to specify that the Federation is its own sovereign state—it has a defined territory, a military force, a law enforcement branch, a permanent and extensive judicial system (headed by a Supreme Court with the power of judicial review), a legislature capable of making binding law throughout its territory, a president who makes foreign policy, a well-developed executive branch bureaucracy, it wages war and concludes peace, etc. Joining the Federation means joining a sovereign state, no different from becoming a province of Canada or a state of Germany or Australia.

2161 also kinda confirmed in ENT "These Are the Voyages"

And “Zero Hour” confirmed the Federation was founded in 2161 in Season Three.

Human year, or Betazed year?

“Zero Hour” establishes that Troi was using the Gregorian calendar, not a Betazoid calendar.

I see AC as a alien species who join the federation. There could have been a Human colony sure, but that isn't what joined the federation, the indigious species did.

For whatever it’s worth, Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures establishes that the Alpha Centauri Concordium was founded as a Human colony that became independent of United Earth prior to the founding of the Federation; there is no indigenous species. TNG: Losing the Peace establishes that the executive branch there is headed by the Governor of the Alpha Centauri Concordium, who has the legal authority to call for binding referenda, and that the capital city is New Samarkand on Alpha Centauri III.

Real-life scientific evidence makes the existence of life in the Alpha Centauri implausible.

The prohibition against genetic engineering probably was just a Earth thing, and not something that all Federation members had to observe.

The problem is that “Dr. Bashir, I Presume?” explicitly establishes that nobody of any species or from any Member State could serve in the Federation Starfleet if they were genetically enhanced. So if the law only applies to United Earth residents, that would seem to fly in the face of Starfleet’s prohibition. Plus it opens up the question of why Julian’s parents didn’t just move to a Federation world that lacked the ban in order to obtain his enhancements legally.

We saw genetic engineering within the Federation in a TNG episode, and it seemed to be out in the open there.

Yeah—“Dr. Bashir, I Presume?” is introducing a clear retcon. A novel out there, I think one by Bennett, established that that colony in TNG was established by the Federation Council as a special exemption to UFP laws against genetic engineering, as an experiment.

Perhaps the Denobulans refused to join the Federation while a restrictive world like Earth (with their prohibition) were a member.

It is entirely possible Denobula never joined the UFP in spite of maintaining friendly relations. (I don’t know if this has been addressed by either of the last two Rise of the Federation novels.)

 

[Tenacity]

I mean, is there a sovereign state in this world that has the status of “observer” to the German Bundestag?

I believe there are (in practice) sovereign states and organizations that are observers to the UN.

The ENT novel Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures by TrekBBS’s own Christopher L. Bennett establishes that the Confederated Martian Colonies was the sixth Federation Member State to join

But where in the show did we clearly see former colonies as Federation members? It did seem to be species or species homeworlds.

 

[Timo]

This is contradicted by the ENT episode “Zero Hour,” which explicitly establishes Vulcans as being one of four founding cultures (the others being Humans, Andorians, and Tellarites).

Except it doesn't. An extremely vague tirade by the untrustworthy Daniels in the process of manipulating Archer includes the following:

"...You're going to be an integral part of forming that Federation. You're down there, right now, with Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites, getting ready to sign the Charter. The membership is going to grow. Dozens, eventually hundreds of species. A United Federation of Planets."

Jonathan "Just Voted the Most Important Person In History" Archer is the one about to sign the Charter. Who else might be about to sign the charter is not specified, or need not be taken as specified. It may include Vulcans, Andorians and Tellarites, or then not. It may be limited to those, or then not. Basically, all we hear is that initially there is at least one signatory, but no more than nineteen so that it doesn't yet become "dozens".

No such thing as the United Earth Starfleet before the founding of the Federation

The characters simply don't mention the name; this is no reason to assume the organization would not exist, as no competing name emerges, either.

Transporters not yet invented

Apparently not. But how many would know about those things? They were more or less considered unique to the Enterprise initially; the putative "preceding cargo version" was alien to Boomers who could be expected to be heavy users of such tech. Apparently, transporters had mostly remained in Erickson's lab until applied to NX-01.

More cultures founding the Federation than “Zero Hour” establishes

But "Zero Hour" certainly establishes no limit to the number of founding cultures. We may have to go with the writer intent of the four mentioned species being founders, but a list that Daniel cuts at three species could easily be nineteen species long. (And would certainly be cut at three if it were nineteen long!)

United Earth has larger space force than ENT establishes

Naah. ENT never establishes anything. All we could even theoretically get is minimum figures, which from "Storm Front II" would be two Enterprises, two Intrepid lookalikes, two Steamrunner lookalikes and two Gangeses (to go by the novelverse name), plus at least one Sarajevo lookalike.

And that's for 2154. At that point, Earth probably would be building starships like crazy, to counter the Xindi threat and the general hostileness of the universe. We have little idea about their shipbuilding capabilities or overall industrial potential: might be that a year later, there are still just thirty or so ships in the fleet, as per the number they hoped to deploy to hunt the Romulan chameleon drone, might be there would be three thousand (to match the skyrocketing of tank or aircraft numbers when the US finally went to war).

If we’re gonna speak formally, I don’t think we should speak in terms of “species” or “worlds;” it would make more sense to speak specifically in terms of a polity, especially since a polity that joins the Federation may have multiple planetary bodies under its jurisdiction (e.g., Tuvok being born on Vulcanis Lunar Colony) or may have a population comprised of multiple species (e.g., Earth being established in VOY to have large non-Human populations).

Or then a political party of three. We really have no known limitations in the onscreen material. And only the vaguest notion that a single planet must be ruled by a single body in order to join (but not that this body would have to be a single-party one).

Well, first off, a person cannot be a Federation member. Membership is about the polity, not the individual; I think the word you want to use is citizen.

But even that would be too limiting. Can a political party become a member? Can a person be a political party?

What I'm interested in is the parties capable of exerting political power on their own. If an individual is reduced to being citizen to his polity, then his vote is lost in the representation system of said polity. Can he break out of that prison and vote alongside the minorities of other polities in order to crush the majority of his own polity?

The concept of "member" has never been defined in Trek, say, through the use of the expression "member planet" or "member species" or "member culture" or "member party". The UFP encompasses planets, species and cultures, but those aren't defined as its members. The UFP hasn't acknowledged political parties so far, but hasn't denied their existence, either.

Second: I see no reason to assume that United Earth’s membership in the Federation means that every Human is a Federation citizen, any more than I see Sicily’s membership in the Italian Republic as evidence that every ethnic Sicilian in the world is an Italian citizen.

The one reason we might have is Starfleet's authority over all humans, especially the ones who have escaped to counterculture colonies. Or Kirk's authority, at any rate - Archer stayed out of Boomer affairs when told to, and Picard never exhibited such powers, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

You don’t get to vote for members of the Ohio General Assembly or for the United States Senators for the State of Ohio if you move to the State of Maryland.

But no matter where a Andorian goes, they are a Andorian (yes there are hybrids). If the membership is by species, then regardless of where the Andorian travels, they (as a member of their species) are a part of the species that is a federation member.

except I think we need to specify that the Federation is its own sovereign state

No, we don't need to do any such thing.

In general principle, I agree, except that both ENT and TOS’s “Balance of Terror” seem to imply that the Earth-Romulus War was fought before the Federation was founded.

TOS's Balance of Terror implies that Earth fought the war independant of the federation, although there was mention of allies.

Possibilies, Earth was a federation member, and choose (for their own reasons) to fight the Romulans without federation assistance.

Earth sought the Federation's particpation, but the federation membership voted not to become involved as a whole, so Earth fought without the federation. Perhaps with only a few other members also acting independently.

The allies Spock spoke of (in Balance of Terror) was a reference to the federation, the federation being a alliance.

 

[Timo]

Or then the entire Federation fought the Romulans, and moreover had allies (either back in the war, or then afterwards).

It's not "Earth and allies" in the reference in any case, it's "humans and allies". Or "Human, Romulan or ally", to be exact - so perhaps only the Romulans had allies?

The phrasing would allow both of the primary sides to be familiar with the looks these allies, although this would just make the bit about no human seeing a Romulan or vice versa even more awkward to explain.

Overall, the conflict is generally known as "the Romulan War", this one episode aside. When Spock refers to it as the "Earth-Romulan conflict" this once, he may simply be specifying which of the many excuses for war the Romulans were using this time. That is, he doesn't enumerate the combatants but just the casus belli.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

I mean, is there a sovereign state in this world that has the status of “observer” to the German Bundestag?

I believe there are (in practice) sovereign states and organizations that are observers to the UN.

Sure. But the United Nations Secretary-General is not the commander-in-chief of a military force, does not preside over a cabinet, does not conduct foreign policy on behalf of United Nations Member States, and does not get to decide whether or not to invade foreign states' territory. Nor does the United Nations General Assembly get to make binding statutory law throughout a territory over which the United Nations is sovereign--because there is no territory over which the Unite Nations is sovereign. Nor does the United Nations have its own currency, nor does the United Nations have its own permanent, extensive court system administering civil law, nor is there a United Nations Supreme Court with the power of judicial review, nor does the United Nations possess its own law enforcement agency.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

TOS's Balance of Terror implies that Earth fought the war independant of the federation, although there was mention of allies.

That's because the war took place before the Federation was ever founded.

 

[Timo]

...This is still something never established on screen.

Wars in Trek mainly happen off screen, and without anybody noticing. At the implied timeslot, roughly a century before TOS, this is all the more likely because we only ever see four years' worth of action. During those years, there's some fighting between Earth and unseen opponents deduced to be the Romulans - is that the war? Granted, we never see anybody named Stiles die there...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

so perhaps only the Romulans had allies?

Could be.

Sure. But the United Nations Secretary-General is not the commander-in-chief of a military force

Meaning the federation isn't exactly like the UN? Sure. But exactly like Germany, I wouldn't think so.

That's because the war took place before the Federation was ever founded.

Or the federation prior to the war (under a different name) became the federation (by that name) after the war.

The same coalition of planets, but a more codified entity. Which subsequently grew.

 

[Timo]

We're still at liberty to ignore the fan idea that the old war would have been only between Romulus and Earth, because this specific thing has not been stated in any bit of Trek.

What "Balance of Terror" describes is the contribution of Earth to the crisis at hand: the "Earthmen" in the "Earth vessel" fight the Romulans to avenge the "Earth outposts". For all we know, the need to specify the species stems from the very fact that the Romulans had so many different enemies in that old war. Had the Romulans chosen their plasma-thrower targets differently that day, they might be concerned with the Andorians in their Andorian vessel out to avenge the Andorian outposts at the RNZ.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

I mean, is there a sovereign state in this world that has the status of “observer” to the German Bundestag?

I believe there are (in practice) sovereign states and organizations that are observers to the UN.

Sure. But the United Nations Secretary-General is not the commander-in-chief of a military force, does not preside over a cabinet, does not conduct foreign policy on behalf of United Nations Member States, and does not get to decide whether or not to invade foreign states' territory. Nor does the United Nations General Assembly get to make binding statutory law throughout a territory over which the United Nations is sovereign--because there is no territory over which the Unite Nations is sovereign. Nor does the United Nations have its own currency, nor does the United Nations have its own permanent, extensive court system administering civil law, nor is there a United Nations Supreme Court with the power of judicial review, nor does the United Nations possess its own law enforcement agency.

Meaning the federation isn't exactly like the UN?

Meaning the United Nations has none of the traits of a sovereign state, and the Federation has all of them. Meaning, it really doesn't make sense for a foreign state to send an "observer" to a sovereign state; the word you're looking for is ambassador.

 

[Timo]

...But that word already has a different meaning in Trek, so all bets are off.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Meaning the United Nations has none of the traits of a sovereign state, and the Federation has all of them

Why would a "sovereign state" use ambassadors internally?

Shras: Have you met Gav before, Ambassador?
Sarek: We debated during my last council session. Ambassador ...
Amada: Ambassador Gav lost.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ The likes of Sarek, Shras and Gav probably should've been Councillors rather than Ambassadors.

 

[Tenacity]

^ Depends on what Roddenberry and company were going for at the time. Space UN, or space republic.

Ambassador works better with some kind of a space UN, otherwise they could have called Sarek, Gav, Shras senators or some such.

The same episode also mentioned the ship was carrying non-ambassador delegates.

My take is that what was happening at Babel was a convention or conference, separate from the federation council, where the member governments would decide among themselves the "Coridan question."

 

[Tenacity]

We're still at liberty to ignore the fan idea that the old war would have been only between Romulus and Earth, because this specific thing has not been stated in any bit of Trek.

Spock does mention a " Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago," but then goes on the describe the ship's employed in the war. They sound consideriby more primative that the NX-01, when reasonably they should be a decade or so more advanced.

This might suggest that the ship's being described were not Earth ships at all.

Earth might have been at best minor players in the war, with the main action being undertaken by another species.

After the war, Earth got stuck with monitoring the neutral zone until the end of time. Basically peacekeepers. keeping the Romulans and their main opponents apart.

 

[Timo]

"Journey to Babel" no doubt is the same thing as "The Forsaken", with Ambassadors the preferred fact-finding instrument of either the Federation or, more probably, its individual Members.

It would be at the recommendation of the Ambassadors that the actual Members would make decisions. Yet in "Babel", Sarek personally is to cast a vote - but at the council of Babel, thus not at the Federation Council.

There's no pressing reason to think the UFP Members have Ambassadors as their democratic representatives, then. The Ambassadors serve a different role, also somewhat different from the role of today's Ambassadors.

Spock does mention a " Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago," but then goes on the describe the ship's employed in the war. They sound consideriby more primative that the NX-01, when reasonably they should be a decade or so more advanced.

The specific attributes listed supposedly all relate directly to the ability to take prisoners. Would what we see in ENT be too primitive for prisoner-taking? To the contrary, if UESF or CoP ships in general have hull plating rather than shields, then transporter abduction ought to be easier than in TOS, not more difficult.

What other attributes would affect the ability to show mercy and thus capture live specimen? There's no demonstrated difference in the relative performance of weapons, and wounding of starships is explicitly possible. But Archer or the CoP cultures never fought actual Romulan starships on screen. Perhaps those are more or less immune to the guns of ENT, and the heftier weapons introduced to deal with them are the ones that don't allow for captives or even reasonably intact corpses?

Earth might have been at best minor players in the war, with the main action being undertaken by another species.

Limiting Spock's "Earth-Romulan conflict" in scope to a fraction of the main action would semantically mean limiting the Neutral Zone to a fraction, too, because that's what he discusses in that phrase. Perhaps Romulans only agreed to a Zone against the human realm, and have nothing similar against the Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite realms?

Why butt heads with humans specifically, though, if they were minor players? If no other players have a Zone with Outposts, why defy this exceptionally fortified stretch of space rather than those others?

I guess if the conflict consisted of a number of separate actions against separate opponents, the result might have been a Berlin-type division of the spoils, and each opponent in fact has its own fortified border - but Earth's is the weakest!

Timo Saloniemi