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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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I think it's all explained in a new book.

But what if the predator species died out, quickly from maybe a virus?

Nog joined the Federation, without Ferenginar being a member world, and all he needed was a letter from Sisko to gett'er'done.
 
Saru said that his people (the 'prey') were deliberately bred and raised for the specific purpose of being prey. To me, this suggests that whoever's DOING the breeding and raising is sentient.

Which is what I went on to say. Didn't make sense to me to use that kind of terminology and have the species be non-sentient. But...then you have the anomaly of a "prey species" developing a warp-capable civilisation plus a unified world government to qualify for Federation membership. It just doesn't add up.
 
There's no indication that Saru's homeworld is in fact a member of the Federation. Nog is proof positive that this doesn't have to be the case.
 
Which is what I went on to say. Didn't make sense to me to use that kind of terminology and have the species be non-sentient. But...then you have the anomaly of a "prey species" developing a warp-capable civilisation plus a unified world government to qualify for Federation membership. It just doesn't add up.
Maybe they got their tech via revolution against the predator species.
 
There's no indication that Saru's homeworld is in fact a member of the Federation. Nog is proof positive that this doesn't have to be the case.

An exception to the rule and one that exists in a Federation over a century from Discovery. And, as has already been mentioned, one that required an intervention from Sisko.

Janeway often made reference to how her era's Federation/Starfleet was more "enlightened" than Kirk's era (whilst she, all the while, acted similarly, at times...). Can you imagine a situation where a Kirk-era (or, rather, pre-Kirk) Starfleet would've made that kind of exception? And who would have been requesting it? How would it be done? I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's improbable. Even today, in the U.S. military, you don't have to be a citizen to join initially...you just have to be one to reenlist.

And Saru is a Commander. What kind of circumstances would have had to exist a decade or more prior to 2256 for this kind of exception to come about?

There's a story to be told here, I think. It might even be interesting. I just don't think they've thought it all out, as of yet.
 
I just rewatched the episode, looking for a reason why Kol would ceremoniously paint L'Rell's face, before calling her a liar. I started thinking, with L'Rell being from a mischievous house and wanting revenge, would it make more sense that she had assumed this would play out the way it did, with Kol touching her face, in-turn infecting him with something? Perhaps a virus?
 
How he got to kill her, or torture her, under Klingon law, depended on whether she was a traitor or a criminal.

If L'Rell wasn't even a member of the house of Kor, how could she be a traitor to the house of Kor?
 
An exception to the rule and one that exists in a Federation over a century from Discovery. And, as has already been mentioned, one that required an intervention from Sisko.

Janeway often made reference to how her era's Federation/Starfleet was more "enlightened" than Kirk's era (whilst she, all the while, acted similarly, at times...). Can you imagine a situation where a Kirk-era (or, rather, pre-Kirk) Starfleet would've made that kind of exception? And who would have been requesting it? How would it be done? I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that it's improbable. Even today, in the U.S. military, you don't have to be a citizen to join initially...you just have to be one to reenlist.

And Saru is a Commander. What kind of circumstances would have had to exist a decade or more prior to 2256 for this kind of exception to come about?

There's a story to be told here, I think. It might even be interesting. I just don't think they've thought it all out, as of yet.

Nog isn't the only one. We've also seen Worf in TNG and Ro Laren in TNG as well as Gaila in the reboot movies (We've never had any indication that the Orions ever joined the Federation). I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Federation in Kirk's time would be any more hard-nosed in this particular area than the one 100 years later. Hell, I just rewatched 'Let that be your last battlefield' yesterday, and at the end Kirk is practically begging both Lokai and Bele to put aside their differences and come live peacefully in the Federation, despite all the damage they've already done both to their own people and to the Enterprise.

As for who would've sponsored Saru, I'd assume some situation similar to Nog's - that a starfleet presence hung out for some period of time around Kelpian society and that one of those officers saw something in Saru and offered the opportunity.
 
Haven't read through the entire thread and it's 1am so this'll be a quickie...

1) Overall, I liked it -- had a very TOS/planetside story feel to it. So nice!
2) The story felt very disjointed so I can't give it high marks; however...
3) The scenes (criminally snipped and cut as I hear they were) between Cornwell and L'Rell were worth their weight in gold-pressed latinum. In just one episode, Jayne Brooks and the writers have made me go from disliking the admiral to fullspeed interest and support. I really hope she ain't dead. As for L'Rell...
4) I think Mary Chieffo is a FIND. Oh My God. She's glorious in this role and this episode was a watershed moment for the character because it gave her a laser-focused inner drive (and life) and tied her fate to what is possibly in the offing in Federation-Klingon relations. Chieffo as L'Rell is compelling to the point of my being unable to move my eyes from her face even when she shares the screen with someone else and makes me actually care about what happens to this possibly untrustworthy, deceitful, passionate, sublime character. She's the best character so far on the show. Give the actor a raise already.
5) Guys, the "romance" between Tyler and Michael ain't working. So please cease and desist with the insipid looks of fake longing. Make them fight each other a bit. Have them have some goddam electricity, yo! I'm really afraid that this is a repeat (again and again) of the old Trek folly of trying to write a romance and failing miserably. Don't do it! If you have to have a romance, have it below deck! Maybe Tilly and someone. Please... no more googoo eyes on the bridge a la Spock and Uhura in the godforsaken Jar Jar movies!
6) Lorca is undergoing a slow and steady revamp of his image LOL. I like it. Either way, don't kill off the dude, please. He's one of the more watchable cast on board.
7) Please! Please stop with the teary eyes and trembling lips act Michael Burnham pulls in Almost. Every. Episode! It's getting old very quickly and isn't a good look on her. Make her as Vulcan as you want, but stop with showing her "inner conflict" via the "I feel your pain" bit. How many goddamn times are you guys gonna make her and Saru fight and then make up? Enough already!
8) I'm following Saru's arc avidly. Excellent stuff with an excellent actor.

Anyway, looking forward to the next installment... grade is 7.5 (had to give it an 8 on the poll).
 
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Indeed. It's like they're giving us the worst of both worlds: artificially shortened episodes to conform to standard broadcast time slots with the added hassle of needing something other than a TV w/ cable/satellite/broadcast service. And then there's the whole subscription model on top of that.

Is the only benefit we've seen so far the occasional, gratuitous "fuck?"
This is a totally false statement. There have been 3-4 episodes that were 48-50 minutes long. That's 6-8 minutes longer than most broadcast shows.
 
An exception to the rule

As already pointed out, more like a rule unto itself. Starfleet probably considers every applicant from a non-member culture a major propaganda coup unto itself. And Bajorans in particular appear to be flocking in; considering the Kelpiens another "victim" culture would not seem unnatural. :devil:

And, as has already been mentioned, one that required an intervention from Sisko.

Well, no - everybody needs to be patronized in order to get into Starfleet. Or at least we never got the impression that Kirk would have been from a non-Federation culture and for that reason require the sponsorship of Mallory Sr. (Although perhaps his Iowan parents joined some crazy sect when moving to Tarsus IV and were banished from the UFP, having to beg their way back in?)

Can you imagine a situation where a Kirk-era (or, rather, pre-Kirk) Starfleet would've made that kind of exception?

If L'Rell asked nicely, I'm sure she would be accepted. And kept under guard, and patronized in the other sense - but more importantly, constantly kept in the focus of publicity.

And Saru is a Commander. What kind of circumstances would have had to exist a decade or more prior to 2256 for this kind of exception to come about?

The peacetime propaganda one, presumably. "See, last month we accepted that guy with no legs. Now we take in a Kelpien!"

Timo Saloniemi
 
My only problem with this episode was that I didn’t understand at first why L’Rell showed any interest in defecting to the Federation when she met admiral Cornwell in her prison cell. I figured it would make more sense if she had seen the dead bodies of her former crew mates first.

Now I haven’t had time to read every post in this thread so maybe someone has posted this already, but my guess is that it’s because the house of Mo’Kai sold out to Kol (to get the cloaking devices) in episode 6 Lethe.

Disillusioned -the Klingon houses unite around the wrong person and for the wrong reasons- and knowing that Voq’s undercover operation (as Lt. Tyler) may be in jeopardy (his knowledge of the spore drive could fall into the wrong hands = Kol), she tries to get him out of there before an operative of the house Mo’Kai does.

If she can get her hands on the ‘ultimate’ weapon, she could rally the other houses around her and Voq against Kol and realize T’Kuvma’s vision.

Thoughts?
 
L'Rell jumped ship with Voq 3 or 4 episodes.

Declared them assholes and ran.

Kept Tyler prisoner for a tad.

Why she is back, is a more interesting question, when she doesn't want to be there, and her every act it seems is to leave, or at least why that is how it seems?
 
We can't tell whether L'Rell changed gears during the episode or not: seeing the slain bodies might simply have furthered her resolve. But she's a spymaster born and bred: she plays people. That she "allies" with a character (say, Voq) may mean her goals are opposite to those of that character (say, she wants Klingon unity to crash and burn).

I trust we get all the relevant bits in the second part of this two-parter. It's just annoying that the clumsy editing withheld those from us for a week, is my bet (of zero quatloos).

Timo Saloniemi
 
This is a totally false statement. There have been 3-4 episodes that were 48-50 minutes long. That's 6-8 minutes longer than most broadcast shows.

Apologies, then. But if what you say is true, then my statement is only maybe half false. Why aren't all of the episodes longer than broadcast?
 
This is a totally false statement. There have been 3-4 episodes that were 48-50 minutes long. That's 6-8 minutes longer than most broadcast shows.

Not really, there were only 2.

1) The Vulcan Hello - 42:51
2) Battle at the Binary Stars - 40:33
3) Context is For Kings - 48:31
4) The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry - 49:53

5) Choose Your Pain - 47:11
6) Lethe - 44:37
7) Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad - 47:21
8) Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - 41:21
 
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