Undoubtedly.
Despite that I had no problem this this on DS9 (was neither a fan or a hater)...I'm definitely not one of them. It was a fun little throw-away concept. Not something to base a series / movie / franchise around.
What if section 31 was a starfleet NCIS team... as a new serie?
Undoubtedly.
Despite that I had no problem this this on DS9 (was neither a fan or a hater)...I'm definitely not one of them. It was a fun little throw-away concept. Not something to base a series / movie / franchise around.
Of course there's another fraction of fans that reject the very concept of S31, because it violates their personal vision of the Federation as some kind of glemming perfect society, a utopian paradise.
My vision of the Federation is a diverse population of regular people going about their lives in the future with access to high tech gadgets. Lot's of Joseph Siskos, a few Jean-Luc Picards.
Meh, by another collection of names then. The basic would be intact, a average government agency with a small special unit which would be disavowed officially.
so why the attempt to shoehorn ncis into section 31 in the first place?
if you called it starfleet homicide investigation team nobody would have made a fuss about it
Starfleet JAG, eh? I'm down with that, if it's executed well. The original JAG is still one of my favorite series of all time, far more so than NCIS (more because I love the military atmosphere of JAG than NCIS being subpar.)
Section 31? I want that shit to disappear already. Happily, David Mack killed it in the Litverse. Starfleet's full of genius-level intellects with a cross-feeding of knowledge between every field imaginable. Do they really need some rogue amoral agency to look after the best interests of the Federation?
They, no doubt, already have sanctioned special forces and intelligence assets that can handle anything that comes along. And it has been shown time after time that amoral policies, in the long run, only end up hurting those who abide by them. Just look at what happened to the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar.
Section 31? I want that shit to disappear already. Happily, David Mack killed it in the Litverse. Starfleet's full of genius-level intellects with a cross-feeding of knowledge between every field imaginable. Do they really need some rogue amoral agency to look after the best interests of the Federation?
They, no doubt, already have sanctioned special forces and intelligence assets that can handle anything that comes along. And it has been shown time after time that amoral policies, in the long run, only end up hurting those who abide by them. Just look at what happened to the Obsidian Order and Tal Shiar.
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Yes, the Federation doesn't exist in some Polly-anna universe.
We're talking about an organization that worked without authorization or oversight. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want someone like that acting on behalf of my nation.
Agreed.
Section 31 is a rogue, terrorist organization. They have absolutely no legitimacy whatsoever. Their only loyalty is to themselves, not the Federation. Section 31 simply does whatever it wants, and there is nothing more dangerous to a functioning and stable democracy. Hell, Section 31 even had an operative INSIDE THE PRESIDENT'S CABINET ("Extreme Measures")!
I don't doubt that the Federation might need to engage in 'black ops' from time to time. But that's why they have Starfleet Intelligence. At least SI operates within the law, they have to justify their existence and budget, and are ultimately responsible to their superiors (up to, and including, the Federation President).
If Starfleet Intelligence can't get it done, it doesn't DESERVE to get done. The law must be observed at all times. That's the bottom line.
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While arguably not longer canon, and only ever semi-canon at best, the Starfleet Rangers from Jeri Taylor's Mosaic, as covert group of elite scientists, engineers and others tasked with foreign intelligence gathering, hostage rescue and presumably other high-risk, low-profile missions (and also refered as a "special forces unit" in the Decipher RPG's Player's Guide) would seem to be a decent "accountable" counterpart for Section 31.
By contrast, TrekLit's Starfleet Ground Forces - which are probably the same as the dark blue collared rescue teams from TFF (potentially commanded at some level by Vice Admiral Cornell West/Colonel West) and potentially aligned with the spikelet "Outpost Duty" insignia from Balance of Terror & Arena - would be the "public facing" functioning unit as a hybrid of US Green Berets, Delta Force and Force Recon (during peacetime).
so why the attempt to shoehorn ncis into section 31 in the first place?
if you called it starfleet homicide investigation team nobody would have made a fuss about it
Because FANS LOVE them some Section 31!!!!!
Section 31 is the stupidest thing the producers/writers ever came up with.
And if that results in people getting killed, or the Federation losing a war, then too bad? Because observing the law is more important?
The law is a tool, if it works great, if it doesn't work then you look for different tool.
Actually the preservation of the Federation was (as written) their priority. S31 could have attempted to ally themselves with the Dominion, they didn't.
The Federation and S31 have existed side by side from the time of beginning of the Federation. S31 as a group predates the Federation.
If S31 was a indeed a encumberment to a "functioning and stable democracy," well it's had been two centuries by the time of DS9.
I (am possibly the only one in the world who can say I) like the idea of a law procedural set in a scifi universe.
I wouldn't want it to be section 31 though because really, we have enough scifi about the ends justifying the means.
Please no "In for a penny, in for a pound" arguments. You can argue for breaking the rules when the very future of our civilization depends on it, but that doesn't mean the same argument applies for gaining strategic advantages over neighbors in non-emergency situations. Principles matter.
I wouldn't want it to be section 31 though because really, we have enough scifi about the ends justifying the means.
Please no "In for a penny, in for a pound" arguments. You can argue for breaking the rules when the very future of our civilization depends on it, but that doesn't mean the same argument applies for gaining strategic advantages over neighbors in non-emergency situations. Principles matter.
I would watch it as well. And, as much as I would like to agree that "Principles matter" we see Kirk and Spock commit espionage to gain a strategic advantage. We see Kirk lie a number of times to gain an advantage, while telling officers that he would have honesty from them.
Kirk expects honesty from his own officers, I doubt he expects the same from enemy officers and othrwise opponents.
Kirk's job isn't be a interstellar paragon of virtue, it's to be a professional officer who completes his assignments. It isn't bending/breaking the rules, the rule book allow Kirk to lie, cheat and steal to carry out his duties an protect the federation.
I could see Picard letting the federation be destroy owing to a fine point of law, but Kirk's judgement and professionalism likely come before following the law to the point of absurdity.
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There's a difference between lying to trick your enemy into making a bad strategic move in an immediate conflict and what Section 31 does. Putting aside even the act of genocide, what they did in Inter Arma Silent Leges, murder a Romulan in order to get their planted saboteur more power, is not acceptable by any stretch of the imagination.
That act was not an attempt to win the war, it was an attempt to consolidate territorial power after the war.
That act was not an attempt to win the war, it was an attempt to consolidate territorial power after the war.
Really? Them committing genocide was not an attempt to win the war? I'm not agreeing with their attack against the Founders, but it would be hard pressed to say it wasn't part of the war effort.
Secondly, I was not aware that the Romulans and the Federation were in an immediate conflict when Kirk and Spock committed espionage.
Power to the ultimate benefit of the Federation.
And there was In the Pale Moonlight, where again a Romulan Senator was killed, to the ultimate benefit of the Federation. Of course that wasn't S31 doing.
and do you think the federation should have waited until such a statee existed?
after a romulan fleet attacked a federation planet. with a multi-billion population, arriving at high warp speed, inside cloaks?
the more high speed a enemy attack is possible, the more proactive a defender has to be.
the romulans make clear what their intentions were in balance of terror.
Nothing in my post indicated that they should have waited at all. My response was to a comment that acting outside of one's principles (honest, in this case) is only acceptable in a time of war.
I was pointing out that Kirk and Spock had done espionage not during a time of war.