Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x08 - "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

[Jadeb]

Tyler-as-Voq must be a fake-out. No production of this scale could be managed that incompetently.

Well, unless Josh Trank were involved.

It's bizarre they haven't offered a more convincing explanation for his whereabouts. They could have had L'Rell talk about her collaborator like he's off doing something important to battle the other Klingon factions. But no, he's just away -- like a Klingon out-of-office message.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

It's bizarre they haven't offered a more convincing explanation for his whereabouts. They could have had L'Rell talk about her collaborator like he's off doing something important to battle the other Klingon factions. But no, he's just away -- like a Klingon out-of-office message.

L'rell did hint to her family being one of spies, and they did hint as to how "far" voq would have to go to endure moving forward. I just assumed this meant infiltrating Starfleet.

But no mention since is a let down, I suppose, we're all meant to believe that the Klingons believe he is dead. So no use talkin about him. And who is L'rell supposed to talk about him with?

 

[OpenMaw]

I think Ash Tyler's status as Voq is not as straight-forward as genetic manipulatio of Voq into Tyler. I think we're dealing more with mind altering/transfer. Ash Tyler was likely a real human being and Voq is simply inhabiting his body. The reason I say this is because the last time we saw a Klingon-spy, or rather the next time in continuity, Darvin, did not bare up to even a basic tricorder scan. Tyler would be found out very easy.

 

[Mudd]

Yes, but they've dropped all of this so heavily and clumsily that it can't be so.

It's entirely possible to use Latif to play both roles without the two being the same person - that's fairly obvious. For several reasons it would be hard to hide the identity of the guy playing Voq if it really were someone other than Latif or another member of the known cast.

I dunno, the GoT producers couldn't keep Jon Snow's return really secret for very long, so maybe this is overthinking. But it seems pretty damned weak.

Tyler could have some other secret about his captivity that he's hiding, hence his obvious untruthfulness.

 

[Jadeb]

L'rell did hint to her family being one of spies, and they did hint as to how "far" voq would have to go to endure moving forward. I just assumed this meant infiltrating Starfleet.

But no mention since is a let down, I suppose, we're all meant to believe that the Klingons believe he is dead. So no use talkin about him. And who is L'rell supposed to talk about him with?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean the writers should have found an opportunity to offer an in-story explanation for his abrupt absence, at least if they want us to assume he's not Tyler. They had an opportunity this week, when L'Rell could have suggested he was off doing something important to battle the other Klingon factions. I don't believe the notion he was "chased away" for a second. If they're going for misdirection, they're doing a clumsy job.

 

[Jadeb]

Yes, but they've dropped all of this so heavily and clumsily that it can't be so.

It's entirely possible to use Latif to play both roles without the two being the same person - that's fairly obvious. For several reasons it would be hard to hide the identity of the guy playing Voq if it really were someone other than Latif or another member of the known cast.

I dunno, the GoT producers couldn't keep Jon Snow's return really secret for very long, so maybe this is overthinking. But it seems pretty damned weak.

Tyler could have some other secret about his captivity that he's hiding, hence his obvious untruthfulness.

The trouble is, either way, the handling of Voq is pretty weak.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean the writers should have found an opportunity to offer an in-story explanation for his abrupt absence, at least if they want us to assume he's not Tyler. They had an opportunity this week, when L'Rell could have suggested he was off doing something important to battle the other Klingon factions. I don't believe the notion he was "chased away" for a second. If they're going for misdirection, they're doing a clumsy job.

Absolutely.
The writers seemed to be ignoring the Klingons as much as they can, they aren't giving a lot of weight to them.

This "season" of the show is going to be too short. They need more episodes and need to space out the Klingon story with more emphasis on their characters. Right now they are one dimensional whogivesacrap cardboard cutouts of bad guys, like straight outta the 80's.

 

[Timo]

They do want us to think he's Tyler - they're dropping "Tyler is a Klingon spy!" hints left and right, with great deliberation, and then immediately "undoing" those hints by painting them as something else.

So the question is, why do they want us to think that way? Perhaps because Tyler is Voq and it's fun to string it out this way. Perhaps because he's not, and the surprise is best kept by this misdirection. I don't think it really matters - they're clearly having lots of fun with it, and so am I. It's a great drinking game, spotting these "Is Tyler a Klingon spy?" things, as there's only about two per episode...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eschaton]

Romance? What romance? I have a lot of difficulty reading nonverbal cues, and even I can tell this is fake as hell. Sonequa Martin-Green needs someone better to play off of. Not saying Shazad Latif is a bad actor, but he has ZERO chemistry with her. Just saying.

It's possible that if Ash Tyler is Voq, he comes across as insincere by design of the character - because he has no real idea how human mating rituals work. In turn Burham is so emotionally stunted she can't pick up on it/cant emote her own affection properly. It still makes the whole "romance" painful as hell to the viewers however.

Agreed I feel the same way. I can't bring myself to give more than an 8 until I feel warm and tingly inside. No tingle yet. A 10 would be near impossible. A 10 would be like super bowl, 4th & 1, with a second left in the game, then your team wins type of enjoyment

There's probably only around a dozen episodes in all of Trek history I'd rate 10s.

Saru was not controlled, so his actions were not those of a "controlled crewmember." That's my point--not that he didn't want them to stay on the planet, not that he didn't at least say that he thought the planet was the answer--but that these were his character-based actions, not those of someone whose mind had been compromised and controlled.

He certainly wasn't being controlled, but at the same time he wasn't himself, any more than you would be yourself if someone temporarily disabled your sense of empathy. The fear instinct is apparently integral to Kelpian psychology, to the point they have diminished judgement if it is absent.

Yeah, what's up with that? That's now the third (!) time on the show they have chosen blue, swirling dust to represent some alien property: those space microbes in “Context is for Kings”, the space fungus from the s-drive and now the Pahvans. Getting a little unimaginative, methinks.

I have a hypothesis they are all linked together, even if it's not obvious to the characters. I'll put it in a standalone spoiler thread.

It felt like it. I looked at the episode length and it was somewhere around 41 minutes. When you take out the previews and credits, it’s got to be under 40. Why on earth do they limit their run times when they are on a streaming site? I’m sure they hope to sell them in syndication someday, but man it’s one of the few benefits this show has being on the very underwhelming CBS All Access. Utilize the platform you are on to let your stories breathe instead of playing some long game with rerun revenue. Or just be on regular CBS so everyone has “access” to it.

My guess is it had nothing to do with keeping the episode length down. Instead, it was because the interactions gave away too much about the rest of the season, and for some reason they thought the "mystery" was better.

 

[Boomer359]

If that was a feeding room, it would have been a terrible place to hide Katrina.

Central to the room is one of those caskets they put on the hull. (Is it also a torpedo?)

Which might mean that all of those dead klingons were supposed to have been put into caskets and bonded to the hull, but had not been since the change in leadership, because the duty roster had gone to shit. It's still the corpseroom, but the morticians who put these warriors to rest, are not doing their jobs, so the corpse mutilation is probably just from random rat-like vermin that hides in the walls and crawlspaces taking advantage of improperly stowed meat.

Were they "wasting" food on Katrina? Considering how quickly they revert to famine conditions, can they waste food on a prisoner, they might space at any moment?

From scavenging the battle of the binary stars, if Klingons can only eat life food, they might have stockpiled plenty of freeze dried human food... But I can also see them trying to feed the woman a small bucket of excrement twice a day.

I'm with you on the corpse room thing (I think the sarcophagus gives it away), but I got the impression that the bodies were the result of Kor carrying out a fairly recent purge of T'kuvma followers, rather than just pre-deceased crew members left uninterred out of neglect.

Even by Klingon standards, Kor seems like kind of a schmuck.

Regarding Cornwell, I'm not sure what L'Rell's play was, here. The lingering shot of Cornwell. apparently lifeless on the floor, felt more like a "hey, pay attention, she might not be dead" kind of thing. If Cornwell is, in fact, dead did L'Rell just leave her there? If she's not dead, was the plan to stash Cornwell in one of the sarcophagi, attach it to the outside of the ship, then pick it up later?

I guess I'm having a hard time figuring out [1] if the defection thing was genuine; [2] whether or not it was genuine, if Cornwell bought it; and [3] if, when they were discovered, Cornwell and L'Rell were really fighting to kill, or one or both of them were just putting on an act.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

If Cornwell is, in fact, dead did L'Rell just leave her there? If she's not dead, was the plan to stash Cornwell in one of the sarcophagi, attach it to the outside of the ship, then pick it up later?

I thought this was supposed to be simply where they dumped bodies, like some sort of a morgue - dump and this was the grizzly proper place to put her body.

 

[Bgt]

yeah yeah the writing still has issues, Burham is probably the most boring St lead EVER, but hmmm..
...I quite enjoyed this one :O
Especially the scenes with L'rell and Cornwell. Those two are the most intriguing characters so far and I hope Cornwell is alive (but I doubt it..otherwise L'rell wouln't take her to the slaughterhouse/whatever that room was).
So L'rell not only she is interesting, but somehow she manages to talk Klingon faster than the rest.
Extra cudos to the actress!

I just wish they will re-think the whole makeup/masks issues.. cause I feel bad for the actors not being able to have expressions.
Poor Saru was moving everything, head, body, hands trying to express feelings.
I hope none of these ppl are claustrophobic.

So Stamets can "navigate" between universes? Not that I can think of any universe with Tilly as a captain :P
I hope Tilly becomes the "Cisco" of STD. Like Cisco started being ultra annoying in "the Flash" and ended up being a beloved character.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If unification is the endgame... They don't have to unify in a murder orgy across the stars, the weaker houses appreciating the strength and aggression of the biggest assholes in the room...

Maybe L'Rell's plan is to unify the Klingon people in defeat under the Federation flag?

 

[ISS-Magnum]

Did we just see the Lorca Maneuver? That was a good tactical move to make, I think. What do the "Lorca is a villain/evil mirror" crowd have to say?

Lorca is bipolar. Just like Captain Janeway.

 

[bookworm8571]

What’s the name of the black Vulcan admiral who gave Lorca orders?

I’d echo the comment from earlier in the thread about killing off female authority figures. I hope Katrina Is not dead. It would be too convenient for Lorca, for one thing. He needs to face an Admiral/lover who knows he’s a devious, manipulative bastard with PTSD who maneuvered so she’d be taken captive. Then he should have to figure out how to stay in the captain’s chair with her knowing all that and still alive. I like Lorca, but he shouldn’t get away with what he did.

Sadly, I am far more invested in Lorca and Katrina and others on the series than I am in Burnham. The only time I actually am interested in Burnham is in her Vulcan scenes. Saru is an interesting character, played by a good actor, but I cringe every time I see him on screen. The makeup is hideous. Likewise with the Klingons. Interesting characters, interesting costumes and hideous monster makeup.



.

 

[oberth]

So, Tilly is captain in the mirror universe?

yep - it's all vertically mirrored this time

 

[Gonzo]

Just watched the episode:

The pace was slower this week but the planet and the species upon it were interesting and I didn't feel that the episode suffered for it at all.

I do wonder about Voq though, the script writers want us to think he is Tyler but is that too obvious, we have even had some instances with the Admiral who commented that Lorca wasn't the same either, that could just be PTSD though.

L'Ressa is trying very hard to get onto the Discovery and not for the shroom drive either, she truly believes that Voq is there and she doesn't seem to really care about anything else.

Truth be told the whole Voq situation could be a gigantic red herring and he could be somewhere else entirely.

To really narrow it down we need a full timeline of events we have seen referenced in the show so far as I don't think they had Lorca long enough to replace him but Ash Tyler could be another matter, someone on the internet/youtube must have done that already I would think.

Kol is clearly the real big bad of the season as it seems he has continued the cannibalism in spite of it not being necessary any more, its certainly a horrible shock to L'Ressa when she finds them and its pretty clear they have been munched on.

It looks to me like this season and maybe the whole series is actually about the Klingons struggle to restore their sense of honour which seems to have been lost, the augment virus may have had a lot to do with it and would explain the whole Remain Klingon rhetoric we saw earlier in the season.

The Virus would have struck at the very heart of what it is to be Klingon with an understandable knock on effect to its culture and traditions.

It looks like the Admiral may even survive to return to the Discovery, very accommodating of Kol to return her to Lorca like that, I suspect the Admiral may return the favour and save L'Ressa during next weeks continuation.

Was going to mention about the teaser for next week we got at the end but not sure if this thread is the place for it.

Solid 8 for plot development alone although the planet was nice to see, wasn't as much whizz bang as we have seen but I suspect we will get that in part two next week.

 

[OpenMaw]

I’d echo the comment from earlier in the thread about killing off female authority figures. I hope Katrina Is not dead. It would be too convenient for Lorca, for one thing. He needs to face an Admiral/lover who knows he’s a devious, manipulative bastard with PTSD who maneuvered so she’d be taken captive.

We don't know that's what happened, though. She's an admiral, he's a captain. He didn't order her to go. She was the logical choice to step up in Sarek's steed. What he did after she was captured is another matter entirely, but even then, it's obvious that he was conflicted and torn. I get no impression that Lorca is purposely putting people in danger because he's an asshole. Indeed, the opening of this episode shows what kind of a man Lorca is. Trying to put his ship in the line of fire to save others demonstrates his character.

 

[caper_guy]

He doesn't say that. Here's the dialogue from the end of the episode:
Saru: I lied to you and Lt. Tyler. I attacked you. I could have killed you.
Michael: You weren't yourself.
Saru: But I was.

Saru was not controlled, so his actions were not those of a "controlled crewmember." That's my point--not that he didn't want them to stay on the planet, not that he didn't at least say that he thought the planet was the answer--but that these were his character-based actions, not those of someone whose mind had been compromised and controlled.

EDIT: Which is to say, I don't think we've seen that before--a character turning out not to be controlled. The episode knows we expect him to be controlled, and turns it on its head.

So should/will Saru be held accountable for his admitted actions of attempted imprisonment of the two away team members and attack on Michael? He says he wasn't controlled, so this is unbecoming of a Starfleet officer, showing potential for such future actions detrimental to his crew.

 

[Borgminister]

I too was annoyed at the 41 minute run time for the episode, but enjoyed the content. It does seem like eps 8 and 9 were originally 1 episode that turned out "too long" (for a streaming service??).