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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"

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You know that, because I know where you hang, but this is not the Voyager forum, so a little over explaining is helpful from time to time, for those less in love with Kathy.

The irony being Infinite Regress, when all of Seven's (assimilation) victims showed up, and the crew liked most of these crazy characters better than Seven of Nine.

Assimilation and rape are very similar, but those digitized personalities were probably being used as processors in some regard, or called on as specialists to deal with unusual situations, which to me sounds like Seven's ongoing genius level intellect was only present because she kept slaves in her brain.
 
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You know that, because I know where you hang, but this is not the Voyager forum, so a little over explaining is helpful from time to time, for those less in love with Kathy.

The irony being Infinite Regress, when all of Seven's (assimilation) victims showed up, and the crew liked most of these crazy characters better than Seven of Nine.

Assimilation and rape are very similar, but those digitized personalities were probably being used as processors in some regard, or called on as specialists to deal with unusual situations, which to me sounds like Seven's ongoing genius level intellect was only present because she kept slaves in her brain.
I wouldn't say Voyager presented the ideal story about rape, (I just responded to someone asking about the subject in general regards Star Trek, and yes I kind of know Voyager best). Seven was not raped but she dealt with being violated and yes, that would be both when she was assimilated and later her memory of it that may have been layered onto her apparent repressed memory regards Kovin. My reaction to watching that episode was fairly sympathetic to Kovin but not hostile to Seven.

It's hard to fully judge Seven for the assimilated victims after she was in the Collective given she had a Collective 'will'. It was like she was both one of them (a victim) and part of supporting the oppression.
 
It was definitely one of Voyager's more blunt rape stories focussing on the procedural aftermath, that was unfortunately very realistic.

I was more commenting on the antiseptic Berman era of unsexualness, where everything is a metaphor and actual sex almost never happened, or it happened in a way that it doesn't have to be talked about.

It's a miracle that Neelix didn't end up with 15 half human kids after The Killing Game.
 
It was definitely one of Voyager's more blunt rape stories focussing on the procedural aftermath, that was unfortunately very realistic.

I was more commenting on the antiseptic Berman era of unsexualness, where everything is a metaphor and actual sex almost never happened, or it happened in a way that it doesn't have to be talked about.

It's a miracle that Neelix didn't end up with 15 half human kids after The Killing Game.

In fairness to Berman though, this was during a time that families were probably still considered a strong part of the overall audience. They probably felt they needed to be careful about certain things they were portraying in the shower to maintain that audience
 
In fairness to Berman though, this was during a time that families were probably still considered a strong part of the overall audience. They probably felt they needed to be careful about certain things they were portraying in the shower to maintain that audience

I wish they were still considered, and think it’s short sighted to assume they shouldn’t be. Geek money tastes good...but generations of geek money? An alliance of pester parents spending and the parents own merchandise wants? That there is a feast. And one DSC is just plain not gonna get. I mean...can you imagine a shore drive playset with real tardigrade torture action? Perhaps something with sponge that gets big when you plop it in water....maybe a Boardgame ‘your officer is raped by a Klingon, but manages to use the bond to stay alive, go forward three spaces’ yeah that oughta do it....
 
This was the first episode that really felt like Trek to me. I've liked previous episodes but this was the most enjoyable so far for me.
 
Alien glow impregnation is still technically rape.

But even if we're accounting for "not actually physical rape" excuses... In the TNG ep Violations, Troi is "raped" by a mental manifestation of the bad guy, mentally. He takes Riker's form, but it's clear she's unwilling. Is it "rape" if I force you to experience a mental illusion of a sexual encounter you don't want, even if I present myself in the form of a past/present lover?

Yes. Yes it is.

They did the same thing in Star Trek: Nemesis (not an original movie, that one). With the subject so raw right now, allegory feels insufficient to the cause. The impulse is to scream at the top of your lungs that THIS IS BAD, because its so prevalent in a society that SHOULD KNOW BETTER. But we don't, and that's really upsetting.

I'm not saying that a show from the 90s is responsible for addressing the concerns of 2017, btw.

Maybe it's a stereotype (albeit a positive one), but Star Trek fans tend to be more socially progressive and empathetic. It's baked into the DNA of the franchise, dating back to half black/half white aliens and Kirk telling a crewman that there's no room for bigotry on the bridge. 50 years later we're dealing with the scapegoating of immigrants, fear mongering about Muslims, white supremacists murdering protesters, mass shootings, prejudice against the LGBQT community, sexual harassment and rape in both Hollywood and beyond... This is all in the last three months. As a fan, and as a human being, it hurts.

We'll do better eventually, and if we can get involved we should, but these aren't great times.

Sorry about the rant. :-(
 
This was the first episode that really felt like Trek to me. I've liked previous episodes but this was the most enjoyable so far for me.

It definitely felt the most like an old TOS or TNG episode, especially one from the B&B era of the franchise with the time loop. That episode could easily have been written by Brannon Braga.
 
Star Trek isn't science fiction, it's action adventure with fictional science. :techman:
Are you really so naive as to see them as different? At the quantum level, there is no difference between science fiction and action adventure with fictional science. No difference at all. Science fiction and action adventure? No. Science fiction AS action adventure.
 
No.
The writing on The Americans is great. Or The Crown. Or Transparent. Or Handmaiden's. Or Thrones. Or PoI. Or Stranger Things. Or House of Cards. Or Orange Black. Dexter. BreakingABQ. Or a 100 other examples I could list.

This is sophomoric shit.

This is easily better than the last couple seasons of Dexter or House of Cards.

And the crew talk more like actual people (yet still adults... I'm looking at you JJ Trek) than most Trek shows.

originality is overrated.

this writing is great and wonderfully advancing the characters.

I have to agree. Even if I'm looking hard for problems, I'm just not seeing them. :shrug:
 
Are you really so naive as to see them as different? At the quantum level, there is no difference between science fiction and action adventure with fictional science. No difference at all. Science fiction and action adventure? No. Science fiction AS action adventure.

Science Fiction story: Advances in cybernetics mean people can replace their entire bodies when injured. What does this mean for people?
Science Fiction with Adventure: same as the above except it leads to a conflict and takes place with some element of travel and mystery.
 
So first your point was 'Discovery's way of doing technobabble is better than in the previous shows'...
Because the "way" of previous shows was to string together random technical-sounding terms into meaningless word salads that had only a tenuous connection to real science. There's nothing wrong with jargon as a narrative device, but it detracts from believably when the jargon is obviously gibberish and even the writers don't really understand what it means.

[qyote]when I criticised Discovery method of technobabble your answer is 'but the other shows did that too!"[/quote]
The "other shows" I'm referring to are mainly TOS and some of the better attempts at realism in Enterprise. The latter missed the mark more often than not, and Discovery and TOS are both favorable by comparison.

Also in Voyager deuterium was suddenly a super rare thing that needed to be mined. And that was painfully stupid. That is exactly the sort of thing that shouldn't happen.
That's kind of what I mean. Someone on the writing staff apparently forgot that deuterium was a REAL THING and it became clear eventually that they were attributing all kinds of weird properties to it because they assumed "Well we made it up, it can do whatever we want it to do."

It's not an example of bad science, really. It's an example of not actually taking science seriously. Even without turning Star Trek into a doctoral dissertation on theoretical physics, the writers could at least crack open a couple of popular science magazines and borrow some real world concepts for episode ideas, kind of like Law and Order and CSI with their "ripped from the headlines" theme episodes.

Hell, imagine if they did a Star Trek episode inspired by the dimming event at Tabby's Star. We'd probably get to see a cool story about an ancient civilization leaving behind an incomplete dyson sphere and maybe some intrigue about who or what destroyed them before it could be finished (also, Dryson would probably have an orgasm).

But the science in Discovery is blatantly completely made-up nonsense and doesn't even have a veneer of believability.
But it DOES have a veneer of believability; you'd have to have intimate and personal knowledge of the subject matter to notice the discrepancy in the first place, and even those of us who do can still roll with it. We basically do this every time someone in a movie or TV show says "Humans only use 50% of their brains" or "Humans evolved from apes." It's what literally EVERYONE did when they watched "Interstellar" and failed to wonder why the Ranger shuttle needed a two-stage booster to leave Earth but didn't need one to leave either of the other planets on the other side of the wormhole. It's why Most of us, when we watch Silence of the Lambs, never notice that Hannibal Lecter mispronounces "Chianti" when he brags about eating that one guy's liver.

It's believable, just as long as you don't look too closely at it.

For comparison sake: When someone in a TV show says "The human brain contains billions of neurolytic quantum superpositional nodes, of which only 50% are ever active at any given time..."
or "Early humans experienced a wave of multi-modal biogenic mutations some time during the isochromatic evolutionary phase"
or "The Ranger's engines use a gravitometric modulation with a sub-harmonic tachyon shunt to collect fuel... so this close to the black hole, our combustion manifolds will be three hundred and fifty percent more efficient than normal."

I would literally rather have bad interpretations of real science than ANY of this bullshit, and I do not think i am alone in that opinion.

Right, so they realised that using real terms and giving them fantastic properties would be a bad idea. That's why they changed lithium to dilithium and lasers to phasers.
Sure. Notice, however, that they DIDN'T change lithium to "tachyonic quauntum rectification matrix," nor did they change lasers to "magnetometric charged nadion emitters." Because those phrases, while they SOUND sophisticated, don't actually mean anything.

If you're going to slip some technical jargon into a line of dialog, you should have some idea of what it's supposed to mean. Don't just throw it in there because your character needs to sound really smart.
 
Hell, imagine if they did a Star Trek episode inspired by the dimming event at Tabby's Star. We'd probably get to see a cool story about an ancient civilization leaving behind an incomplete dyson sphere and maybe some intrigue about who or what destroyed them before it could be finished.
Yeah, that would be super cool, and I really with they'd do more stuff like that. There are a lot of amazing space stuff that is not even particularly speculative that would be cool to see in Star Trek, planets that are not exactly like Earh for starters, I think they now have FX tech to pull that off believably.

But it DOES have a veneer of believability; you'd have to have intimate and personal knowledge of the subject matter to notice the discrepancy in the first place, and even those of us who do can still roll with it.
Just no. You don't need to have very deep understanding of either physics or biology to realise that an idea of universe spanning mushroom network that lets you instantly teleport anywhere by torturing water bears is utterly bonkers and has about as much scientific credibility than the magic in Harry Potter.
 
It was weak.

Glom that episode against her glitchy memory in The Voyager Conspiracy, and you can't trust Seven's memory ever again.

He could have been innocent, because his guilt, which would have been so easy to confirm, was never confirmed, which made the story grey when it should have been black and white.
As another example of bad technobabble: EMH and Tuvok keep referring to Seven's "cellular residue" on the instruments supposedly used to extract her nanoprobes. It strikes me that a five minute call to a criminal pathologist anywhere in the country would probably give them a list of less obtuse (and certainly less ridiculous sounding) terms to use instead of that. Aside from the fact that human cells don't really leave "residue" that has a distinct "genome" you can trace, it would be a nice touch of believability if they simply found traces of hair follicles or skin cells in some little crevice in the casing.

Same with the deuterium thing. "We don't build stories around scientific concepts, we make up scientific concepts that fit whatever story we've decided to tell this week."
 
Just no. You don't need to have very deep understanding of either physics or biology to realise that an idea of universe spanning mushroom network that lets you instantly teleport anywhere by torturing water bears is utterly bonkers and has about as much scientific credibility than the magic in Harry Potter.
Clearly you weren't a fan of the "Dune" novels.
 
^Or Chris Moriarty's Spin Trilogy (of which I've actually only ever read the first, Spin State). From what I (patchily) recall, they teleport around the universe via a network of naturally-occurring-quantum-entangled-living-coral-reef-like structures.
 
Are you really so naive as to see them as different? At the quantum level, there is no difference between science fiction and action adventure with fictional science. No difference at all. Science fiction and action adventure? No. Science fiction AS action adventure.
Do you really have no sense of humor? Lighten up, Francis. :techman:
 
Another nice episode. Like a good Trek series it grows week after week.

But guys, I hope you are all excited because tomorrow episode will be at 90% the best of the entire season.
Written by none other than Kirsten Beyer. I repeat: first time on a planet for DSC and written by Ms. Beyer. Rapp was crying on the set filming this episode. Hype over 9000!
 
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