Spoilers How/Why are Eugenics Experiments Legally/Ethically Justified?

[oberth]

So who would you rather rule your nation Stalin, Pol Pot, Papa Doc or Hitler?A military dictatorship is still a dictatorship even when the dictators share your species. How many well intentioned military coups gave up power peacefully, without some major civil war once the reason for said coup no longer existed?

none of them was a military guy - try pinochet

 

[Nyotarules]

none of them was a military guy - try pinochet

I bet they believed they were...

 

[marsh8472]

So who would you rather rule your nation Stalin, Pol Pot, Papa Doc or Hitler?A military dictatorship is still a dictatorship even when the dictators share your species. How many well intentioned military coups gave up power peacefully, without some major civil war once the reason for said coup no longer existed? Admiral Leyton did not seem the type to give up the reins if he ever came to power.
Funny how the same actor played a bad guy leader in ENT lol

If Layton does not give up the power later people can overthrow him next. It's like overthrowing a government that's become too tyrannical vs overthrowing a government that's become too inept. Layton probably figured the president was too inept based on this dialogue

BENTEEN: The bottom line is a changeling infiltrated the grounds of Starfleet Headquarters, imitated the Admiral, and got away scot-free. Our security measures aren't working.
SISKO: We're doing everything the President will let us do.
BENTEEN: Maybe that's not enough.
ODO: We could talk to the President again.
LEYTON: I'm afraid that would be a waste of time. Jaresh-Inyo would be a fine president in peacetime, but we have a war on our hands. He doesn't seem to understand that. All he cares about is not upsetting people. But humans are tougher than he thinks. We've created a paradise here and we're willing to fight to protect it.
SISKO: And you think the President isn't willing to fight?
LEYTON: I think the President is a long way from home. This isn't his world. We can't expect him to care about it the way we do.

 

[oberth]

If Layton does not give up the power later people can overthrow him next.

... a secession of military coups? what is this? the united federation of planets or 20th century argentina?

It's like overthrowing a government that's become too tyrannical vs overthrowing a government that's become too inept. Layton probably figured the president was too inept based on this dialogue

why not stand in an election? if leyton is right it's a piece of cake to oust the president

i like robert foxworth, too but that dude really has a thing for military coups, hasn't he?

 

[marsh8472]

... a secession of military coups? what is this? the united federation of planets or 20th century argentina?


why not stand in an election? if leyton is right it's a piece of cake to oust the president

i like robert foxworth, too but that dude really has a thing for military coups, hasn't he?

I don't know it's speculation for me at that point. Jaresh-Inyo was later removed as a president later so that could have been plan B. If the government works like ours where the powers are divided up into branches followed by them all being dead-locked then having presidential authority wouldn't be good enough.

He may have thought that there wouldn't have been enough time to go through the proper channels to remove the president. Or did not feel comfortable that someone with his views could win the election. Sisko did say that there hadn't been a bombing attack on Earth in over a hundred years. Maybe the public has become too complacent like what the essentialist movement thought.

 

[oberth]

I don't know it's speculation for me at that point. Jaresh-Inyo was later removed as a president later so that could have been plan B. If the government works like ours where the powers are divided up into branches followed by them all being dead-locked then having presidential authority wouldn't be good enough.

He may have thought that there wouldn't have been enough time to go through the proper channels to remove the president. Or did not feel comfortable that someone with his views could win the election. Sisko did say that there hadn't been a bombing attack on Earth in over a hundred years. Maybe the public has become too complacent like what the essentialist movement thought.

for someone fine with breaking the big rules (military coup) you are quite a stickler for the small ones in comparison (anything lorca came even close to)

 

[marsh8472]

for someone fine with breaking the big rules (military coup) you are quite a stickler for the small ones in comparison (anything lorca came even close to)

yeahh I'm thinking from a consequentialist's point of view. I'm not comparing the severity of what they did but rather the rationalization behind it. I like how Leyton rationalizes breaking the law more than the way Lorca does. He seems more human and thoughtful about it.

 

[oberth]

yeahh I'm thinking from a consequentialist's point of view.

so does lorca

I like how Leyton rationalizes breaking the law more than the way Lorca does. He seems more human and thoughtful about it.

like in ordering to fire on an starfleet vessel without any hesitation and in the process lying to everyone involved

who exactly is your human role model for that? genghis khan?

 

[marsh8472]

so does lorca



like in ordering to fire on an starfleet vessel without any hesitation and in the process lying to everyone involved

who exactly is your human role model for that? genghis khan?

He also appealed to Sisko to get the Defiant to stand down. But he was losing control of the situation there and getting more desperate. Layten did resign willingly rather than fighting it at the end remember

 

[oberth]

classical - "if you don't do as i tell you you are the one who killed them". it comes directly from the darth vader school of diplomatics

 

[marsh8472]

classical - "if you don't do as i tell you you are the one who killed them". it comes directly from the darth vader school of diplomatics

Yea no one said ends justify the means was pretty.

 

[oberth]

Yea no one said ends justify the means was pretty.

so what's your prob with lorca? not tough enough?

 

[marsh8472]

so what's your prob with lorca? not tough enough?

He seems more heartless. If he were the one executing a military coup it would probably be uglier. He obsesses over war and collects trophies. Layton can be reasoned with.

 

[oberth]

He seems more heartless. If he were the one executing a military coup it would probably be uglier. He obsesses over war and collects trophies. Layton can be reasoned with.

he isn't even near that. if he did it'd be uglier. what kind of an argument is that? if ever tonya harding staged a military coup it'd be on ice?

i got it that you can't stand lorca but does that make him worse than anybody else? i admit, however, that shoehorning can be an artform at times.

 

[Noname Given]

He seems more heartless. If he were the one executing a military coup it would probably be uglier. He obsesses over war and collects trophies. Layton can be reasoned with.

Leyton can be reasoned with? Really? Is that why after Sisco attempted that he had the Lakota open fire an the ONLY REASON both vessels survived was NOT because of anything Layton did, but more because neither Captains of BOTH ships felt like delivering the killing blow?

I thinkk it boils down to: "Hey, I LIKED DS9 - so anything the do is okay; but I dislike ST: D so here's yet another reason..."

 

[oberth]

Leyton can be reasoned with? Really? Is that why after Sisco attempted that he had the Lakota open fire an the ONLY REASON both vessels survived was NOT because of anything Layton did, but more because neither Captains of BOTH ships felt like delivering the killing blow?

I thinkk it boils down to: "Hey, I LIKED DS9 - so anything the do is okay; but I dislike ST: D so here's yet another reason..."

he was one of the bad guys in ds9 - it's: even the bad guys of ds9 are better than lorca.

 

[jaime]

Explicitly contradicted by LaForge - who was born congenitally blind. He even makes the point in The Masterpiece Society that he'd have been aborted had the Federation adopted the same stance. So either there are disorders they can't fix (and Geordi's parents chose to have him anyway) or there are rules against genetic tampering.

And what constitutes a disorder? Bashir's description of how he was prior to being enhanced makes it sound like he was mentally challenged - much slower than the other kids his age. If that sort of problem could be "fixed" then why wasn't it? Why did his parents have to go to the extremes of having him boosted to genius near-augment levels if they could just have had him tweaked to a "normal" IQ range?

It’s an interesting point about Geordi, especially when you consider how many twentieth century Eugenics groups went into birth-Control clinics etc...it’s quite an unsettling background. When you look at Geordis statement, and the Federations stance on Eugenics, it raises very interesting questions.

 

[Mike Sivill]

Samets clearly just wanted to get high with his mushrooms. And doesn't he loses all experimental objectivity by injecting himself with a mind altering substance? Therefore - recreational drug use - not an experiment.

 

[marsh8472]

Leyton can be reasoned with? Really? Is that why after Sisco attempted that he had the Lakota open fire an the ONLY REASON both vessels survived was NOT because of anything Layton did, but more because neither Captains of BOTH ships felt like delivering the killing blow?

I thinkk it boils down to: "Hey, I LIKED DS9 - so anything the do is okay; but I dislike ST: D so here's yet another reason..."

I'd rather have Layton as my dictator. Wouldn't you? I don't know how far Lorca would go as a dictator and think he would be more likely to lose his objectivity while trying to achieve his objectives.

 

[oberth]

I'd rather have Layton as my dictator. Wouldn't you? I don't know how far Lorca would go as a dictator and think he would be more likely to lose his objectivity while trying to achieve his objectives.

where is leyton's objectivity? you prefer a guy already gone nuts to someone who might perhaps ...