Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"

[Mr Awe]

They told a time loop story. They didn’t tell a story without huge plot and logic holes. Like every other story there are people who liked the story and/or didn’t mind the lack of logic and there are those who didn’t like the story and/or were bothered by the plot holes. I don’t understand why one group or the other should shut up and not voice their opinion.

I never asked anyone to shut up so what the heck are you talking about?

I just think the nitpicking over the crystals is silly when they're clearly intended to be a plot device that simply allows them to tell a time loop story. You may or may not like the story, but that was the intent of introducing the crystals.

If you want to stress yourself out over them, be my guest!

 

[Mr Awe]

I actually liked the story, I just thought the end made zero sense. Much like "Cadet-to-Captain" in the Abrams films, or the end of "Pria". One can enjoy something and still admit there are flaws.

I do kind of agree with that. Buuut, I did love how it tied in with TOS. Yet, you're right, for what he did, it felt very odd.

 

[Mr Awe]

True, no argument there by me. But you should probably shut up and like everything apparently. God forbid there’s nitpicking in a sci-fi forum!

No one is telling you to shut up.

Some of us are saying it's silly to work yourself up over the time crystals. But feel free to do that if that's your thing.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

We just had someone in this thread point out the stardate being ahead of TOS, which proceeded into to a silly debate over whether TAS was canon.

All because of a stardate.

Most fans don't care about stardates, but if it appears that DISCO goofed up on the tiniest detail then that's A MAJOR FUCK UP that we need to call out on the makers.

Goofed up stardate = NOT MY STAR TREK

I think someone else may already have mentioned it, but during TOS, writers were literally told to simply pick a random four-digit number for their story's stardate, and stay consistent only in advancing it by decimals through that particular story, and not to worry about others. Consistency of stardates between episodes was neither required nor sought, because they were not absolute dates, but relative and variable based on multiple factors.

From the writers/directors guide:

"We invented 'Stardate' to avoid continually mentioning Star Trek's century (actually, about two hundred years from now [sic]), and getting into arguments about whether this or that would have developed by then. Pick any combination of four numbers plus a percentage point, use it as your story's stardate. For example, 1313.5 is twelve o'clock noon of one day and 1314.5 would be noon of the next day. Each percentage point is roughly equivalent to one-tenth of one day. The progression of stardates in your script should remain constant but don't worry about whether or not there is a progression from other scripts. Stardates are a mathematical formula which varies depending on location in the galaxy, velocity of travel, and other factors, can vary widely from episode to episode."

Roddenberry elaborated in The Making Of Star Trek:

"IN THE BEGINNING, I INVENTED THE TERM 'STAR DATE' SIMPLY TO KEEP FROM TYPING [sic] OURSELVES DOWN TO 2265 A.D., OR SHOULD IT BE 2312 A.D.? I WANTED US WELL INTO THE FUTURE BUT WITHOUT ARGUING APPROXIMATELY WHICH CENTURY THIS OR THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INVENTED OR SUPERSEDED. WHEN WE BEGAN MAKING EPISODES, WE WOULD USE A STAR DATE SUCH AS 2317 ONE WEEK, AND THEN A WEEK LATER WHEN WE MADE THE NEXT EPISODE WE WOULD MOVE THE STAR DATE UP TO 2942, AND SO ON. UNFORTUNATELY, HOWEVER, THE EPISODES ARE NOT AIRED IN THE SAME ORDER IN WHICH WE FILMED THEM. SO WE BEGAN TO GET COMPLAINTS FROM THE VIEWERS, ASKING, 'HOW COME ONE WEEK THE STAR DATE IS 2891, THE NEXT WEEK IT'S 2337, AND THEN THE WEEK AFTER IT'S 3414?'

IN ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS, I CAME UP WITH THE STATEMENT THAT 'THIS TIME SYSTEM ADJUSTS FOR SHIFTS IN RELATIVE TIME WHICH OCCUR DUE TO THE VESSEL'S SPEED AND SPACE WARP CAPABILITY. IT HAS LITTLE RELATIONSHIP TO EARTH'S TIME AS WE KNOW IT. ONE HOUR ABOARD THE U.S.S. ENTERPRISE AT DIFFERENT TIMES MAY EQUAL AS LITTLE AS THREE EARTH HOURS. THE STAR DATES SPECIFIED IN THE LOG ENTRY MUST BE COMPUTED AGAINST THE SPEED OF THE VESSEL, THE SPACE WARP, AND ITS POSITION WITHIN OUR GALAXY, IN ORDER TO GIVE A MEANINGFUL READING.' THEREFORE STAR DATE WOULD BE ONE THING AT ONE POINT IN THE GALAXY AND SOMETHING ELSE AGAIN AT ANOTHER POINT IN THE GALAXY.

I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT I MEANT BY THAT EXPLANATION, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE INDICATED IT MAKES SENSE. IF SO, I'VE BEEN LUCKY AGAIN, AND I'D JUST AS SOON FORGET THE WHOLE THING BEFORE I'M ASKED ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT IT."

It's yet another case where what some are saying DSC is getting "wrong" based on their familiarity with later Trek is actually them getting it right with respect to the original source material.

Still there is a difference between science fiction and "magic"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[Nerys Myk]

How fast of a ship were Stella and her Dad in that they were able to pack up and get to the Discovery in roughly twenty minutes? It also took Burnham and company no time at all to find them.

But, since the episode was actually enjoyable, I'll just file it in "Trek WTF".

Plot Speed (TM) Grimes Inc.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

I never asked anyone to shut up so what the heck are you talking about?

I just think the nitpicking over the crystals is silly when they're clearly intended to be a plot device that simply allows them to tell a time loop story. You may or may not like the story, but that was the intent of introducing the crystals.

If you want to stress yourself out over them, be my guest!

No one is telling you to shut up.

Some of us are saying it's silly to work yourself up over the time crystals. But feel free to do that if that's your thing.

So if I’m reading between the lines, I think you’re trying to tell me not to shut up. I think you’re trying to tell me that (my?) nitpicking about the crystals is silly. And I think you’re trying to tell me to feel free to work myself up over the time crystals. At least that’s what I think that your innuendoes’ true meaning is. Perhaps you should tell me for a third time just to be sure I got it.

 

[Amaris]

If he could acquire them, then there's no doubt the Federation could figure out a way to acquire them. Especially considering they had him on the hook for treason.

Eh, maybe, maybe not. If Mudd's one of the few people who know where they are, he might divulge it. Then again, he might just weasel out of it as he often manages to do. Hard to say with him.

Indeed.


The online behavior you see now is no different than it was when Enterprise first aired or when Star Trek hit the theaters in 2009. It’s the same nit-picking, rationalizing, and need to be heard/respected from the “I don’t like this” camp that drives the continuous (and repetitive) stream of critical commentary.


The problem is that it gets old. You have 75% of a message board talking up a lively discussion about the ins-and-outs of a series that they like (. You have 20% trying to break through and, for some reason, feel they need to be heard over the din of all us “rainbow and pony” people who like the series for what it is…and that comes off as combative and irritating for some)…but that’s the only way their opinions will feel validated and rationalized.


Then you have 5% psychoanalyzing everyone’s behavior.


Huh….never mind…

It's a vicious cycle.

There’s only one ship with a spore drive. That’s as rare and exorbitant as Mudd’s crystals. Ships can be repaired or replaced but not the thousands of servicemen and women killed. Wasting resources is exactly this: Having learned about a resource like the time crystals and not caring/asking about its potential use.

A ship with a spore drive can be built, as there are resources to make this happen. The time crystals are rare, and irreplaceable.

Exactly. By the next episode. This time they forgot about it IN THE SAME EPISODE.

They didn't forget. We don't know what will happen next, as this is a serialized show.

I actually liked the story, I just thought the end made zero sense. Much like "Cadet-to-Captain" in the Abrams films, or the end of "Pria". One can enjoy something and still admit there are flaws.

I've decided you're not allowed. *smacks BillJ on head*

 

[GeekUSACarl]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

And?

quoting someone else's personal writing philosophy is not making a point. Especially from the angle of viewership, they aren't the same thing. Magic from a wand, and the descriptions thereof are creating a very different world of viewership than effect from a fictional scientific venture.

 

[Ithekro]

I've decided you're not allowed. *smacks BillJ on head*

He is no longer of the Body?

As for the Spore Drive. Starfleet is making more of them to install in as many starships as they can. They need time to do this. They also need navigation systems for their new drives....something which the Admiral chastised Lorca about. So Starfleet will need to come up with some navigators, or develop a supercomputer to use them, or else they still only have one ship and a semi-rogue captain willing to operate on the edge of Earth law to fight the war.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

A ship with a spore drive can be built, as there are resources to make this happen. The time crystals are rare, and irreplaceable.

How exactly did you put it? Ah, yes. Eh, maybe, maybe not. Did they ask about them?

They didn't forget. We don't know what will happen next, as this is a serialized show.

I must have missed the part where they detained Mudd and questioned him. In the episode I saw they let him leave scot-free without asking/caring about this new and powerful technology.

 

[BillJ]

You're making an logic error. Just because Mudd had two doesn't mean they're common. I have two exceedingly rare coins. Just because I have two doesn't make them common. There's a reason why I have two.

Shouldn't the crew make the effort to find out? Maybe they do later in the season. Though as it stands now, it sticks out pretty bad.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

In the episode "The Conscience of the King", there is this snippet of dialog:

COMPUTER: Library computer.
KIRK: History files. Subject, former Governor Kodos of Tarsus Four, also known as Kodos the Executioner. After that, background on actor Anton Karidian.
COMPUTER: Working. Kodos the Executioner, summary. Governor of Tarsus Four twenty Earth years ago. Invoked martial law. Slaughtered fifty percent of population Earth colony, that planet. Burned body found when Earth forces arrived. No positive identification. Case closed. Detailed information follows. On stardate 2794.7,
KIRK: Stop. Information on Anton Karidian.

I have always taken that stardate as being the date when the events on Tarsus IV began, in 2246. So, I am having less trouble with the stardate heard in Discovery.

 

[Mr Awe]

So if I’m reading between the lines, I think you’re trying to tell me not to shut up. I think you’re trying to tell me that (my?) nitpicking about the crystals is silly. And I think you’re trying to tell me to feel free to work myself up over the time crystals. At least that’s what I think that your innuendoes’ true meaning is. Perhaps you should tell me for a third time just to be sure I got it.

I'm not telling you to shut up. I think it's silly to work yourself up over the crystals. But, please do so if that's your thing.

The only part I disagree with is where you use the word "innuendo" because it was not innuendo. I stated all of that quite explicitly!

 

[Ithekro]

Maybe they got a reading of it on the last loop, but didn't say anything of it, because they want to be able to surprise the audience with it later.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Shouldn't the crew make the effort to find out? Maybe they do later in the season. Though as it stands now, it sticks out pretty bad.

To be frank I've thought about it and, I dunno, if he is so damn afraid of Stella and her Dad, and he is so damn clever and dangerous to me and my crew, I'd probably make the judgment call of "you take him" as opposed to having him on my ship in any capacity longer than necessary.

 

[eschaton]

Ultimately, this episode did have flaws, but for the most part, they were the normal flaws in plotting and technobabble Trek has always had. The one exception is while I've warmed up to Burnham, her long-form monologues still aren't doing it for me.

 

[BillJ]

I do wonder why the Enterprise computer in "Mudd's Women" didn't go into detail about Harry's past dealings with Starfleet? Kirk would've tossed him in the brig if he knew Mudd attempted treason against the Federation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I do wonder why the Enterprise computer in "Mudd's Women" didn't go into detail about Harry's past dealings with Starfleet? Kirk would've tossed him in the brig if he knew Mudd attempted treason against the Federation.

He doesn't have a high enough security clearance.

 

[Ithekro]

Lorca doesn't keep records like that, plus Discovery is above top secret. Even if Mudd had a record for that, it be above Kirk's clearance level.

 

[Mr Awe]

Shouldn't the crew make the effort to find out? Maybe they do later in the season. Though as it stands now, it sticks out pretty bad.

I'd agree with that. Who knows, maybe the first thing they did after shipping him off was to look into his ship and stuff?

But, think about it from the writers view. If this is a one-off thing, would they want to spend screen time on a dead end angle like that? Maybe if they had the extra time available, but maybe they didn't.

Or, maybe as others suggest, the crystals will be back and addressed later. I don't know. I'm kind of hoping not myself.

From an entirely in story point of view, sure, I'll agree that they should have been really interested in the technology for obvious reasons. Just like in City on the Edge of Forever, they should've been worried about leaving the Guardian abandoned. But, I think the writers know it's not coming back so why waste the screen time on something that'll never be mentioned again?