Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x07 - "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad"

[Captain of the USS Averof]

It only means he failed 53 times, or are you suggesting that the Federation uses these rare, expensive crystals to destroy a handful of Klingon ships?

He failed to capture it 53 times. He succeeded in destroying it 53 times. And the Federation would/should have loved the opportunity of destroying a Klingon warship with a single crystal without firing a single shot! One operative with one crystal to take out an entire enemy ship with hundreds of crew? That’s an admiral’s wet dream!

 

[Amaris]

He failed to capture it 53 times. He succeeded in destroying it 53 times. And the Federation would/should have loved the opportunity of destroying a Klingon warship with a single crystal without firing a single shot! One operative with one crystal to take out an entire enemy ship with hundreds of crew? That’s an admiral’s wet dream!

That sounds like a massive waste of resources. A few Klingon ships is the key here, because "hundreds of crew" means nothing in an empire of billions, or for a race predisposed to battle and warfare. There are more conventional methods that could do the same thing, and aren't rare or exorbitant.

 

[BillJ]

The audience rates will tell if it was entertaining

No. I'll decide if it was entertaining for me. It was problematic, but entertaining. Thanks.

The time crystals presented as a rare thing that were unknown during Discovery's time period and we know aren't a major thing in later time periods. They're simply a device that makes telling the story possible. Mudd found one device and now it's gone. I think it vanished at the end, right? I might be misremembering. But, we know time crystals are not a common thing in ST.

They did vanish. But obviously Mudd knows where to get them, since he used them before. They are a mega weapon that should've interested Discovery's crew far more than they did. And, Mudd should've been tossed in prison instead of stuck with his future wife.

It feels like the solutions to both times we see Mudd really defy common sense, so they can use him the next time they need him.

Seriously, Star Trek has a shitload of magic technology no one even questions. Why get hung up on this one when the story adequately shows some of the technology's limitations?

I think part of the problem is that Star Trek wants to be taken seriously as sci-fi one day, then wants to use shortcuts the next to tell a story it wants to tell. It needs to make up its mind on what it wants to be. If it wants to be serious, then it needs to give up the crutches of the past, like magic time crystals.

 

[Amaris]

No. I'll decide if it was entertaining for me. It was problematic, but entertaining. Thanks.



They did vanish. But obviously Mudd knows where to get them, since he used them before. They are a mega weapon that should've interested Discovery's crew far more than they did. And, Mudd should've been tossed in prison instead of stuck with his future wife.

It feels like the solutions to both times we see Mudd really defy common sense, so they can use him the next time they need him.



I think part of the problem is that Star Trek wants to be taken seriously as sci-fi one day, then wants to use shortcuts the next to tell a story it wants to tell. It needs to make up its mind on what it wants to be. If it wants to be serious, then it needs to give up the crutches of the past, like magic time crystals.

It's been doing this since the original series and, for many, has enjoyed a status as serious science fiction. Everyone else sees it as silly space opera. which also describes it accurately.

 

[BillJ]

It's been doing this since the original series and, for many, has enjoyed a status as serious science fiction.

I quit seeing it as serious sci-fi a really long time ago. But if you are going to do grimdark sci-fi war epic, then magic time crystals really don't fit into the mix. Especially when they don't even attempt to learn about something that could be used as a devastating weapon in the right circumstance.

 

[Amaris]

I quit seeing it as serious sci-fi a really long time ago. But if you are going to do grimdark sci-fi war epic, then magic time crystals really don't fit into the mix. Especially when they don't even attempt to learn about something that could be used as a devastating weapon in the right circumstance.

DS9, one of the "darker" Treks, used magic time crystals, too. We just called them Tears of the Prophets, or orbs, if you prefer. Seriously, this is not new to Star Trek.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

That sounds like a massive waste of resources. A few Klingon ships is the key here, because "hundreds of crew" means nothing in an empire of billions, or for a race predisposed to battle and warfare. There are more conventional methods that could do the same thing, and aren't rare or exorbitant.

Waste of resources is risking your ships and your service men and women instead of crystals.
Conventional methods means having 10,000 dead (and how many more wounded or captured?) in the first 7 months of war instead of a handful of operators with crystals.
The spore drive is also rare and exorbitant but that didn’t stop Starfleet from using it.

 

[BillJ]

DS9, one of the "darker" Treks, used magic time crystals, too. We just called them Tears of the Prophets, or orbs, if you prefer. Seriously, this is not new to Star Trek.

I never said it was new. I said it didn't fit, and were non-sensical when trying to tell a serious war drama. There are reasons Deep Space Nine is at the bottom of my list when it comes to Trek.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

BTW I now completely understand the title of the episode. It totally is...

“Magic (Crystals) to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad”!

 

[Vger23]

I think the definition of what qualifies (or disqualifies) something as "serious science fiction" is varable.

And I'm not so sure that anyone anywhere has ever said that Star Trek wants to be considered "serious science fiction."

I think they want Star Trek to be a show that is taken seriously from a character and dramatic standpoint, and that show happens to be set in a science fiction environment. But I don't think anyone has ever said they they want to have Star Trek considered the Blade Runner or 2001 of televised science fiction. Star Trek has always been a little loose with that stuff in the name of entertainment.

 

[Amaris]

Waste of resources is risking your ships and your service men and women instead of crystals.
Conventional methods means having 10,000 dead (and how many more wounded or captured?) in the first 7 months of war instead of a handful of operators with crystals.
The spore drive is also rare and exorbitant but that didn’t stop Starfleet from using it.

Um, no. The spore drive isn't "rare and exorbitant," it's experimental. There are two ships. One went wonky, and the other one enjoys a wide latitude from the Admiralty. These crystals are apparently very hard to find, and once they're gone, they're gone, as we saw when Mudd used his.To say "let's use these extremely rare and unique crystals to blow up a few ships instead of using a handful of ships we can repair or rebuild to accomplish the same task" is to waste resources that could be best used elsewhere.

I never said it was new. I said it didn't fit, and were non-sensical when trying to tell a serious war drama. There are reasons Deep Space Nine is at the bottom of my list when it comes to Trek.

It doesn't change what I said, either. DS9 is considered dark and gritty, yet it had its own set of magic crystals. TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT all had time travel, and all used methods that seemed almost conventional in their approach. I mean, hell, look at Star Trek: First Contact, one of the most popular Trek movies among the fandom. The Borg had temporal displacement technology. The BORG. You know, the species that hasn't met a people it's not willing to assimilate? Yet why isn't the galaxy full of Borg drones? VOY is the same. ENT had a whole Temporal Cold War going on in the latter seasons. I mean, really, only now it's an issue?

 

[Vger23]

Transporters.

Seriously, Star Trek has a shitload of magic technology no one even questions. Why get hung up on this one when the story adequately shows some of the technology's limitations?

Because if I don't like Discovery for whatever reasons (perfectly valid reasons I'm sure)...this kind of argument is just another rationalization for why that opinion is valid and should be more broadly shared and respected within the community.

Simple stuff.

 

[BillJ]

I mean, really, only now it's an issue?

So you think this is the first time ever that people have had trouble with something introduced on Trek? Forget the ruckus over transwarp beaming?

 

[Amaris]

Because if I don't like Discovery for whatever reasons (perfectly valid reasons I'm sure)...this kind of argument is just another rationalization for why that opinion is valid and should be more broadly shared and respected within the community.

Simple stuff.

Oh, I know. What's acceptable in someone's favorite series becomes absurd in another, less liked one. That's nothing new.

So you think this is the first time ever that people have had trouble with something introduced on Trek? Forget the ruckus over transwarp beaming?

No, I don't. I just think it's a tired, useless argument.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Regarding the timely arrival of Stella and her dad, we should remember that they had a search warrant out for Mr. Mudd, with a massive reward. When the heroes browsed their database for Stella, they'd immediately see the big red button saying "Click for massive reward!" and absolutely would click it.

Surely Stella would be prepared to immediately act on the click, too. So it becomes a question of where. Not "Where is Stella?", though, but "Where is the Discovery?". Perhaps Lorca did take his bosses' advice and move to a position safely behind the lines, close to Earth. It's not as if he'd have reasons not to.



Intent to kill is not punishable in general, unless it can somehow be demonstrated that there was effort made to turn that intent into action. Utterly ineffective effort counts as a defense; lack of evidence for effort means dismissing of charges.

"Preparing for a crime" is a major point of disagreement in law, and every entry thereof is hotly contested, usually only accepted if pertaining to particularly violent crime. "Planning for a crime" is more controversial still, and "Thinking of a crime" is the opposite of punishable - an intent to punish for that is a crime in itself.

I guess the one thing we need to worry about is Mudd's rap sheet in "Mudd's Women". This event is not mentioned there, so the parties involved did take care not to mention it.

Another angle: "Dagger of the Mind" style brainwashing seems effective in preventing repeat offenses. Are any of Mudd's later antics repeats of what happened here? He did lose his Master's License at some point; operating a ship without the legal niceties is a repeat offense of sorts.

Timo Saloniemi

Also, it's inane to claim that Mudd had intent to kill in the first place when his actions where clearly predicated on the fact that nothing he did was permanent. People can try to claim 'he didn't know for sure' or 'something could've gone wrong', but HE'S the only expert on this technology in existence that we know of, and he sure put himself in a lot of danger for someone who 'didn't know for sure'.

You also don't know for sure that a plane won't crash into your house while you read this, but that doesn't mean you could possibly be expected to take precautions for such an event.

You’ve missed his point completely. It wasn’t about science fiction technology vs magic at all. And it wasn’t about magic dilithium crystals vs magic time crystals either.

The point was that there’s this incredible new technology that only Mudd has, the time crystals, technology that allows you to repeat a specific period of time in a specific spot in the universe an infinite number of times, technology as groundbreaking as the spore drive, technology more groundbreaking than the invisibility cloak, technology that’s invaluable to the war effort for both sides, and nobody cares? WTF? Screw the mushroom drive, Mudd should have sold this to the Klingons!

That's the dumbest thing Mudd could possibly do. This crystal thing is the goose that laid the golden egg. The best position Mudd can possibly be in is to be the only person who knows it exists, so he can keep using it to steal money and valuable things endlessly.

The time crystals presented as a rare thing that were unknown during Discovery's time period and we know aren't a major thing in later time periods. They're simply a device that makes telling the story possible. Mudd found one device and now it's gone. I think it vanished at the end, right? I might be misremembering. But, we know time crystals are not a common thing in ST.

Only the bracelet vanished at the end. The actual time crystal was inside Mudd's ship in the Gormagander. We never saw it in the first place, and, personally I do expect it to appear again later in the season. Whatever anyone thinks of the quality of DSC so far, one thing is irrefutable, imo: these writers do have a plan that they are clearly unfolding over the course of the season. One thing leads to another, controversial ideas are revisited, etc. No way they threw something this powerful into the mix for a one-off side story.

 

[BillJ]

No, I don't. I just think it's a tired, useless argument.

The way they treated the technology and Mudd in a time of supposed war simply doesn't make sense. Obviously the technology can't be that expensive as Mudd can afford it. Obviously the technology is reliable, as Mudd killed Lorca 53 times (why wasn't it 47?).

Yet the Discovery crew show no interest in it, and let Mudd go to boot. Mudd who was committing treason against the Federation.

 

[Amaris]

The way they treated the technology and Mudd in a time of supposed war simply doesn't make sense. Obviously the technology can't be that expensive as Mudd can afford it. Obviously the technology is reliable, as Mudd killed Lorca 53 times (why wasn't it 47?).

Yet the Discovery crew show no interest in it, and let Mudd go to boot. Mudd who was committing treason against the Federation.

Again, a Star Trek tradition is to introduce a world changing technology, and forget it by the next episode. The horse has long since left the barn and got a job.

 

[Vger23]

Um, no. The spore drive isn't "rare and exorbitant," it's experimental. There are two ships. One went wonky, and the other one enjoys a wide latitude from the Admiralty. These crystals are apparently very hard to find, and once they're gone, they're gone, as we saw when Mudd used his.To say "let's use these extremely rare and unique crystals to blow up a few ships instead of using a handful of ships we can repair or rebuild to accomplish the same task" is to waste resources that could be best used elsewhere.


It doesn't change what I said, either. DS9 is considered dark and gritty, yet it had its own set of magic crystals. TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT all had time travel, and all used methods that seemed almost conventional in their approach. I mean, hell, look at Star Trek: First Contact, one of the most popular Trek movies among the fandom. The Borg had temporal displacement technology. The BORG. You know, the species that hasn't met a people it's not willing to assimilate? Yet why isn't the galaxy full of Borg drones? VOY is the same. ENT had a whole Temporal Cold War going on in the latter seasons. I mean, really, only now it's an issue?

And the best part of the First Contact use of that plot device? The fact that it is totally hand-waved at the end of the film when it's time to go home.

"Recreate the vortex, Commander"

Wow!

But, since people love FC, it gets a pass.

Everything in Trek gets a pass if it's associated with a film or series that that person likes.

Everything gets nitpicked to death (songs at a party, for example) if it's associated with a part of the franchise that the person does NOT like. Again, it’s the need to rationalize the opinion that wins out here. Not the need to be consistent in how those opinions are applied.


That’s why this argument you are making (which is completely logical and valid) never nets any results. You simply cannot win.

 

[BillJ]

Again, a Star Trek tradition is to introduce a world changing technology, and forget it by the next episode.

That's great in an episodic/anthology format.

 

[Amaris]

And the best part of the First Contact use of that plot device? The fact that it is totally hand-waved at the end of the film when it's time to go home.

"Recreate the vortex, Commander"

Wow!

But, since people love FC, it gets a pass.

Everything in Trek gets a pass if it's associated with a film or series that that person likes.

Everything gets nitpicked to death (songs at a party, for example) if it's associated with a part of the franchise that the person does NOT like. Again, it’s the need to rationalize the opinion that wins out here. Not the need to be consistent in how those opinions are applied.


That’s why this argument you are making (which is completely logical and valid) never nets any results. You simply cannot win.

Very true. It is a Sisyphean effort, because even if I were to somehow "win," it would only be taken up by someone else. Honestly, I don't get too far anymore anyway, as I just enjoy the show as it is. Star Trek is a wonderful show for me, but that's what it is, a show, some movies, a game: entertainment. I like it to be as consistent as possible, but there are no kittens if canon is violated in order to better serve the story.

That's great in an episodic/anthology format.

Again, Temporal Cold War. DS9's war arc, all had technology that could have been devastating to the enemy, but was forgotten in order to better serve the plot. Otherwise, the very first and last episode of Star Trek would have been "Where No Man Has Gone Before."