Spoilers How/Why are Eugenics Experiments Legally/Ethically Justified?

[marsh8472]

Saru tells Burnham that Tardigrade DNA cannot be used on a human because eugenics experiments are forbidden. Satmets injected himself and nothing was said about it that I can recall. Now they're using the spore drive every week and even had their doctor create implants for Stamets to assist in regular use. Why is it being allowed? Why no protests? Should they stop doing it? Lorca said "When I accepted the command, I was given the fullest latitude to fight this war how I saw fit." They mentioned starfleet regulation 13982 as justification for Lorca hiring Burnham. Is there likely something similar in place for eugenic experiments?

 

[matthunter]

Stamets' transformation is likely a grey area since yes - it gives him abilities other humans don't have - but these are highly contingent on outside tech (or, in rare circumstances, the presence of temporal phenomena). Without a spore drive, he's just a slightly wonky human, not a superstrong augment. Probably the same logic Starfleet applied to allow Bashir to keep his job when he got outed - he's not another Khan, the augmentation just gave him a step up - unfair, yes, but he's a proven loyal officer and a valued asset in a war setting. If Starfleet is gonna accept Lorca having Burnham on his team because she's really smart, they'll look the other way for Stamets... ESPECIALLY when the top-secret war-winning drive doesn't work without him (or an elusive tardigrade).

Frankly, I'm surprised they're being moral enough not to be injecting humans with tardi DNA left, right and centre and making a whole fleet of sporeships. Unless Lorca hasn't let on that they're using Stamets and not the tardigrade...

 

[Kor]

... Unless Lorca hasn't let on that they're using Stamets and not the tardigrade...

Cornwell already knows, as she questioned him about use of eugenics tech.

This is probably just one of many dubious actions that Starfleet will sweep under the rug.

And that's simply what happens in wartime, even on the side that is regarded as "the good guys." After all, "Inter arma enim silent leges," and all that. When Trek depicts such things happening, we as an audience are being challenged to think about such issues and question their place in the real world.

Kor

 

[cultcross]

It may be that this storyline ends up reinforcing Starfleet's taboo on genetic engineering, depending on how it all turns out.

 

[Psion]

Saru tells Burnham that Tardigrade DNA cannot be used on a human because eugenics experiments are forbidden. Satmets injected himself and nothing was said about it that I can recall. Now they're using the spore drive every week and even had their doctor create implants for Stamets to assist in regular use. Why is it being allowed? Why no protests? Should they stop doing it? Lorca said "When I accepted the command, I was given the fullest latitude to fight this war how I saw fit." They mentioned starfleet regulation 13982 as justification for Lorca hiring Burnham. Is there likely something similar in place for eugenic experiments?

Eugenics is the control of a population's genetics through selective breeding. It was very popular around the world until a certain rogue Austrian with a taste for Chaplin mustaches showed the danger of a centralized authority wielding control of such a program. The problem isn't altering genetics, but the use of state authority to force certain people to breed and to sterilize others with undesirable traits -- an act which happened a lot even in the United States until WWII.

 

[Kor]

Eugenics is the control of a population's genetics through selective breeding. It was very popular around the world until a certain rogue Austrian with a taste for Chaplin mustaches showed the danger of a centralized authority wielding control of such a program. The problem isn't altering genetics, but the use of state authority to force certain people to breed and to sterilize others with undesirable traits -- an act which happened a lot even in the United States until WWII.

Since the word "eugenics" was used in reference to the tardigrade DNA transfer, Starfleet must have changed the definition of the word "eugenics," just like they changed the definition of the word "mutiny."

Kor

 

[marsh8472]

I can see high up admirals, section 31, or starfleet intelligence doing something like that but a whole regular starfleet crew members are involved each time they go to Black Alert. Most of the crew of the Pegasus mutinied over experiments like this leading to admiral Pressman's arrest later. It looks like they're in the wrong if we hold them to that standard.

 

[cultcross]

Eugenics is the control of a population's genetics through selective breeding. It was very popular around the world until a certain rogue Austrian with a taste for Chaplin mustaches showed the danger of a centralized authority wielding control of such a program. The problem isn't altering genetics, but the use of state authority to force certain people to breed and to sterilize others with undesirable traits -- an act which happened a lot even in the United States until WWII.

The word was misused in the Khan backstory, and I'm guessing they've just decided that's what it means in the Trekverse. I read it as 'genetic engineering' as a more efficient descendent of eugenics by breeding.

 

[Kor]

No doubt, the particular details of the spore drive functionality are kept on a "need to know" basis. The rank and file serving on the ship may not know that a living being is being used in this fashion.

Kor

 

[Psion]

Since the word "eugenics" was used in reference to the tardigrade DNA transfer, Starfleet must have changed the definition of the word "eugenics," just like they changed the definition of the word "mutiny."

Kor

Yep ... and I should go back and review the exact dialog, because I took that as Admiral Cornwell speaking colloquially ... using hyperbole to describe what Stamets had done, for the sake of argumentation.

The word was misused in the Khan backstory, and I'm guessing they've just decided that's what it means in the Trekverse. I read it as 'genetic engineering' as a more efficient descendent of eugenics by breeding.

Agreed. The writers of Wrath of Khan, I think, were deliberately trying to update the concept, but they wound up accidentally conflating two different ideas.

 

[matthunter]

Cornwell already knows, as she questioned him about use of eugenics tech.

Yes, but whether she'd yet voiced her concerns to Starfleet Command is another matter. She was trying to shield Lorca right up until he made it plain he was operating under compromised judgement.

 

[marsh8472]

They can probably justify it by bringing Article 14, Section 31

Ent "Divergence"
ARCHER: Phlox was kidnapped. Starfleet would never authorise that.
HARRIS [on monitor]: Reread the Charter, Article 14, Section 31. There are a few lines that make allowances for bending the rules during times of extraordinary threat.
ARCHER: What threat?
HARRIS [on monitor]: Take your pick. Earth's got a lot of enemies.
ARCHER: Klingons attacked my ship. Is that what we're talking about?

 

[Timo]

But that doesn't apply to Cornwell's Starfleet, which has a different Charter altogether.

Doing genetical improving of humans (whether by selective breeding or colorful injections or blinking forcefields) is a big taboo in the post-1990s Star Trek universe. That is,

- among humans
- when it's not the government doing it
- when it amounts to the superior powers, superior ambition thing

Since DSC is basically all-human, the taboo ought to apply. Starfleet is Government, though, and a command from on high might well obligate Lorca to engage in genetic improvement, "Unnatural Selection" style. No doubt such command will be forthcoming soon enough, along with like orders to other skippers to make sure their Spore Navigators get and stay suitably superhuman. But only until one of 'em goes for that superior ambition bit.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

But that doesn't apply to Cornwell's Starfleet, which has a different Charter altogether.
...

...which also happens to have a section with the number 31 which is interpreted in a way that allows for shady business to deal with threats.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Umm, how so? Sloan could be justifying his actions by quoting the Old Testament - it's not as if any of the 24th century characters are buying that part. They're just going along either to placate a madman until they can properly handcuff him, or because they agree with what the Section is doing and want to help.

"The original Starfleet Charter" already negates its value by including the word "original" there, as if implying that the current version omits all the good bits.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[XCV330]

I don't think Starfleet likes what happened to Stamets, but he did it to himself. Lorca did not authorize it. They can't exactly euthanize him or put him into one of those prisons they later benevolently maintain to "take care" of children who were augmented. He's too important. But they're probably not ready to bend the rules by outfitting another Crossfield for spore drive and finding a willing DNA recipient (this time, would they be getting Tardigrade DNA or Stamets' modified DNA) further until they understand better what is happening to him.

 

[Krandor]

I don't think Starfleet likes what happened to Stamets, but he did it to himself. Lorca did not authorize it.

That to me is the difference here. Nothing was forced. Nobody intentionally did this to him. It was discovered while investigating the tardigrade and Stamets is the one who injected himself. So if anybody broke the law or code or charter it is Stamets but I don't think they really want to lock him up for doing someething that helped starfleet. Now that it is done may as well take advantage of it.

 

[XCV330]

That to me is the difference here. Nothing was forced. Nobody intentionally did this to him. It was discovered while investigating the tardigrade and Stamets is the one who injected himself. So if anybody broke the law or code or charter it is Stamets but I don't think they really want to lock him up for doing someething that helped starfleet. Now that it is done may as well take advantage of it.

The same way they didnt like the eugenics work of the original Dr Soong, but they didnt destroy it, either.

 

[Noname Given]

Since the word "eugenics" was used in reference to the tardigrade DNA transfer, Starfleet must have changed the definition of the word "eugenics," just like they changed the definition of the word "mutiny."

Kor

Well, it appears that they (in "Enterprise") reclassified the "Eugenics Wars" to include direct DNA manipulation (not just selective breeding) to create Khan and the Augments. I think they even used the term for the 'enhanced Dr. Bashir' storyline during DS9 Season 5.

 

[eschaton]

Eugenics is the control of a population's genetics through selective breeding. It was very popular around the world until a certain rogue Austrian with a taste for Chaplin mustaches showed the danger of a centralized authority wielding control of such a program. The problem isn't altering genetics, but the use of state authority to force certain people to breed and to sterilize others with undesirable traits -- an act which happened a lot even in the United States until WWII.

Just as an aside, while coercive eugenics is a dead letter in our culture, eugenics as a principle in terms of reproduction is alive and well. Look at, for example, developmental screening and selective abortion of fetuses, or the demands potential parents make of sperm/egg donors (almost always high intelligence/levels of education, and must be tall if a man).

I've always presumed in the Trekverse genetic engineering in order to correct disorders is A-OK (which is part of why no present-day diseases exist any longer). It's trying to create something superior to the human baseline which has been outlawed.