Bad Language in Discovery

[donners22]

I agree with this, and I feel that even the realistic, flawed human beings of the 23rd century should be at least a little more enlightened than us mouth-breathing 21st-century primitives, and it would show in their comportment. Yes, people swear a lot today. But Star Trek does not take place today. It takes place in a more enlightened, civilized and cultured future.

They are. It is not a situation where swearing is used as a term of abuse. It is not used to threaten or degrade. It is not used casually, reflecting a lack of imagination and vocabulary or a generally vulgar nature.

It is a word which slips out in a moment of awe, is immediately seen as inappropriate and surprising, but is generously adopted by the superior officer given the special nature of the moment and the very human reaction it elicited.

That is not in the slightest way incompatible with "a more enlightened, civilized and cultured future".

 

[ralfy]

But seriously, how are rationality and profanity mutually exclusive? And "cultured, refined" dialogue can quickly cross into stilted and snobbish if you're not careful.

STAR TREK is not supposed to be Downton Abbey.

They are mutually exclusive in the sense that profanity might lead to emotional responses, if not unwarranted physical violence.

Refined dialogue may be seen as snobbish in the real world, but likely not in one where an abundance of resources has led to a society that is based essentially on self-cultivation.

If any, that's precisely the reason why Star Trek is not supposed to be Downton Abbey.

 

[ralfy]

what do you think the quota might be? One use of profanity every third episode?

Perhaps it should be based on some warranted reason, similar to including violence or even sex.

In this case, a writer may try to figure out why a character like Tilly would use such words, especially given the point that they are barely used even by the meanest of characters that have appeared in the franchise. Perhaps she is enthralled by twentieth- and twenty-first-century lingo, like Huxley from Demolition Man, and Stamets plays along. That would be an interesting minor backstory to develop. It also gives some more depth to these characters.

They can even add some humor with other characters not understanding one or other terms, and develop some scenes similar to those from Voyage Home.

 

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

Just a thought about the evolution of language.

Before the sixteenth century the word *fuck meant "to strike",
after that it was slowly integrated into the common vocabulary as the meaning of having sex, as it resembles "hitting" someone with your lower body.
Today the word *hitting means "to fuck"...

Fast forward some 200years into the future...
The word *fuck is now kind of back to its origin and means "striking"
With a little goodwill we can say that;
when Tilly says
fucking cool, she simply comments that the technology is quite noticeable.
"thats a striking piece of tech"

 

[Prax]

Perhaps it should be based on some warranted reason, similar to including violence or even sex.

Like speeding tickets?

Perhaps she is enthralled by twentieth- and twenty-first-century lingo, like Huxley from Demolition Man, and Stamets plays along. That would be an interesting minor backstory to develop.

Like Tom Paris? Which reminds me of that episode where they go back to the past, and he's trying to use 20th century lingo to fit. He says "groovy" and it doesn't quite work for him.

Which also reminds me, Stamets said "groovy" didn't he..

 

[Greg Cox]

They are mutually exclusive in the sense that profanity might lead to emotional responses, if not unwarranted physical violence.

God forbid that people should have emotional responses in the future!

Seriously, I find the notion of Starfleet types reacting violently to profanity more of a stretch than the idea that (gasp!) people say "fuck' in the future.

And, honestly, you want do want keep things a little realistic and down-to-earth just to avoid giving the impression that STAR TREK is rooted in some sort of old-fashioned notion of "refinement" in which progress consists of everybody sipping tea, quoting Shakespeare, and enjoying Gilbert & Sullivan.

That's not enlightenment, that's elitism. IMHO. It calls to mind some sort of snooty, high-society grande dame (played by Margaret Dumont, perhaps) sniffing about "vulgarity" and the lack of proper breeding and etiquette these days . . ..

 

[Butters]

God forbid that people should have emotional responses in the future!

Seriously, I find the notion of Starfleet types reacting violently to profanity more of a stretch than the idea that (gasp!) people say "fuck' in the future.

And, honestly, you want do want keep things a little realistic and down-to-earth just to avoid giving the impression that STAR TREK is rooted in some sort of old-fashioned notion of "refinement" in which progress consists of everybody sipping tea, quoting Shakespeare, and enjoying Gilbert & Sullivan.

That's not enlightenment, that's elitism. IMHO. It calls to mind some sort of snooty, high-society grande dame (played by Margaret Dumont, perhaps) sniffing about "vulgarity" and the lack of proper breeding and etiquette these days . . ..

I do believe you have it surrounded Mr Cox. Elitism not enlightenment, and its prevalent in elements of the fan base, always has. There is little to find little, beyond a prominent lady navel, that is of interest to the lowest common denominator. They don't eat burgers, listen to pop music, watch football, or swear. They're better than that.

 

[David cgc]

Who is the least likely to use that word? I say Garak, and Nurse Chapel.

I think Garak could’ve put Malcolm Tucker to shame in an R-rated version of "The Wire" or especially "Afterimage."

 

[Prax]

Garak wouldn't swear. Even if he was quoting someone who did, he would paraphrase using more eloquent words.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Why can’t you be enlightened and say “fuck”? It’s a fucking great word and I doubt we’ll be able to invent a decent replacement. Ignoring the reality of censors, I always figured it wasn’t used because they were trying to be professionals. If TNG had aired now, he crew would probably let a few swear words out during poker games. Especially Riker, Riker probably knows alien swears for when English doesn’t go far enough.

 

[ralfy]

Just a thought about the evolution of language.

Before the sixteenth century the word *fuck meant "to strike",
after that it was slowly integrated into the common vocabulary as the meaning of having sex, as it resembles "hitting" someone with your lower body.
Today the word *hitting means "to fuck"...

Fast forward some 200years into the future...
The word *fuck is now kind of back to its origin and means "striking"
With a little goodwill we can say that;
when Tilly says
fucking cool, she simply comments that the technology is quite noticeable.
"thats a striking piece of tech"

The catch is that it shows up for the first time in STD but hardly throughout the franchise, which means it became obsolete.

 

[ralfy]

God forbid that people should have emotional responses in the future!

Seriously, I find the notion of Starfleet types reacting violently to profanity more of a stretch than the idea that (gasp!) people say "fuck' in the future.

And, honestly, you want do want keep things a little realistic and down-to-earth just to avoid giving the impression that STAR TREK is rooted in some sort of old-fashioned notion of "refinement" in which progress consists of everybody sipping tea, quoting Shakespeare, and enjoying Gilbert & Sullivan.

That's not enlightenment, that's elitism. IMHO. It calls to mind some sort of snooty, high-society grande dame (played by Margaret Dumont, perhaps) sniffing about "vulgarity" and the lack of proper breeding and etiquette these days . . ..

From what I remember, every point you mention appears throughout the franchise. Picard drinks tea, several characters quote from Shakespeare, and in one scene, several TNG characters start singing from HMS Pinafore.

Also, it was probably a combination of enlightenment and elitism, the first brought about by an incredible array of alien cultures to study, and the second readily seen in Star Fleet itself, but the main goal was probably not to be better than others but to achieve a personal best. I think that happened because there was hardly any need to compete over material resources and credit.

 

[Prax]

If some people find it vulgar, and don't see vulgar as a positive, is there something wrong with them?

Like 3% of the posts in this thread have even raised an objection, and for different reasons.

 

[IndyMac]

I agree with this, and I feel that even the realistic, flawed human beings of the 23rd century should be at least a little more enlightened than us mouth-breathing 21st-century primitives, and it would show in their comportment. Yes, people swear a lot today. But Star Trek does not take place today. It takes place in a more enlightened, civilized and cultured future.

I would think that labeling certain words as good or bad and being afraid of the "bad" words makes you less enlightened, civilized, or cultured.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The catch is that it shows up for the first time in STD but hardly throughout the franchise, which means it became obsolete.

That's not how it works.

 

[Red Shirt]

Uhura to 'Lincoln' in The Savage Curtain:
"You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words."

Frackin' A!

 

[Greg Cox]

The catch is that it shows up for the first time in STD but hardly throughout the franchise, which means it became obsolete.

No, it simply means that network Standards and Practices wouldn't allow it, that's all.

Sometimes real-world explanations are enough--and don't require some kind of in-universe rationalizing.

I mean, showing gay crew members on prime-time network TV was impossible back in 1966 because it was 1966. Does that mean we have to accept as "canon" that no gay people existed in the 23rd century? Or that homosexuality somehow became "obsolete" by Kirk's time? Of course not. That would be silly.

Same thing with assuming that "fuck" vanished from the future just because, in the real, world, you couldn't say that on TV before.

 

[Turtletrekker]

"The one magical word."

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[Prax]

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[Greg Cox]

From what I remember, every point you mention appears throughout the franchise. Picard drinks tea, several characters quote from Shakespeare, and in one scene, several TNG characters start singing from HMS Pinafore.

Exactly. I cited those examples on purpose, to illustrate just how refreshing Tilly's "fucking cool" was by comparison.

Don't get me wrong. I like Shakespeare and literary allusions as much as the next bibliophile, but Trek was arguably in danger of equating "progress" and "enlightenment" with a certain stuffy, upper-class notion of "culture" and "refinement." (Which is one reason that I like the way the new movies have injected some much-needed rock-n-roll into the proceedings.)

Heck, even Picard liked his hard-boiled crime novels, which were no doubt considered "vulgar" pulp trash in their day. And somehow I doubt that Dixon Hill that was shocked or offended by strong language.