Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[jaime]

They were exactly as skiffy as Trek.

I dunno...hairy monster on the wing isn’t a possible thing in the stories setting (our earth) skewing it to horror or fairy tale and fantasy....whereas a giant space amoeba eating the enterprise or a salt monster are possible in a science-fiction setting like Trek.
The absolutely sf stories sure...but both also go into supernatural tales. Trek, explicitly doesn’t. There’s always an ‘aliens’ get out clause.

 

[Mudd]

I dunno...hairy monster on the wing isn’t a possible thing in the stories setting (our earth) skewing it to horror or fairy tale and fantasy....whereas a giant space amoeba eating the enterprise or a salt monster are possible in a science-fiction setting like Trek.
The absolutely sf stories sure...but both also go into supernatural tales. Trek, explicitly doesn’t. There’s always an ‘aliens’ get out clause.

Trek is full of impossible nonsense that's not based in science and always has been.

 

[jaime]

Trek is full of impossible nonsense that's not based in science and always has been.

Yes. But in universe, it never heads to the supernatural, the exception being the Prophets, but that’s more or less the point.
Zone and Limits are more like X-Files..ocassionaly supernatural.

 

[Mudd]

There were points last night where The Orville reminded me just a wee bit of an original Twilight Zone episode. Serling liked to do stories where an individual found themselves oppressed by the authorities in a world where social approval and conformity had the weight of law.

 

[jaime]

There were points last night where The Orville reminded me just a wee bit of an original Twilight Zone episode. Serling liked to do stories where an individual found themselves oppressed by the authorities in a world where social approval and conformity had the weight of law.

Or as we will call it soon....Tuesday.

XD

The Allegory stuff sounds strong in Orville, I look forward to actually seeing the series.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There were points last night where The Orville reminded me just a wee bit of an original Twilight Zone episode. Serling liked to do stories where an individual found themselves oppressed by the authorities in a world where social approval and conformity had the weight of law.

It goes to show the pervasive influence of Shirley Jackson.

 

[Feron]

The main problem with STD isn't that it violates that vision. It's that it's badly written.

As opposed to say, the first season of TNG, which some here hold up as the "real Star Trek"?

IMHO, some keep comparing apples an oranges, i.e. cherry-picking some handful of favorite episodes out of a 7 year run rather than comparing first season with first season.

HERE is what we suffered through in first season TNG:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Is THAT some of the "good writing" that we are all supposed to be pining for? It is horrid. We are introduced to the poster-boy for Mary Sue characters, who is literally escorted straight to the Captain's chair... because Mary Sue. And we get a "new vision" for Star Trek, where a crowd of people who do not belong on a bridge of a Starfleet vessel, from Doctors to Counsellors to Mary Sue child characters -- are given permanent assigned seats there.

McCoy would show up on TOS's bridge, but generally in terms of dialogue or exchanging information connected to the storyline. He didn't have a station there, because his job was in the infirmary. But with TNG, the Doctor has to have a special chair right next to the Captain, because... well she is special, and so on. After all, Picard was overcome with poorly acted emotion when we see this scene, so that means that now a Doctor is on a large team of co-Captains.

These first episodes of Discovery are written way better than the drivel of first season TNG, IMNSHO.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

As opposed to say, the first season of TNG, which some here hold up as the "real Star Trek"?

the "real" trek talk will die down in general eventually. i dunno these boards well but that talk will subside eventually.

but yeah "trek" has some horrible moments in writing. Disco may not be in one's style but the writing so far has been great for a first season of any show and it seems to get better with each episode.

what makes trek fans so great is our passionate expectations. and when a new trek comes out after so long people have expectations. cant please everyone. but itll please many, i predict more than enterprise at least.

 

[Mudd]

It goes to show the pervasive influence of Shirley Jackson.

It's certainly something she captured, yes.

what makes trek fans so great is our passionate expectations.

False premise.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Star Trek was NEVER "unique" - it's unique progenitor was the 1956 film Forbidden Planet and even TOS writing structure was the way it was because a number of the staff and hollywood freelancers who were called in to submit/pitch a script had also done stories for popular genre TV series of that era in the 1950ies like Twilight Zone and The Outer Limits.

I realize it's hard for generations who became fans after the 1950ies/1970ies era find it hard to separate out Gene Roddenberry's out and out buillsh*t and he likes to claim Star Trek was 'the first adult Science Fiction series/Always dealt with topical issues (again it did, but not all the time - and both the Twilight Zone and Outer Limits did the same using the science fiction aspect to mask that they were too.)

This is not to say Star Trek did have many original concepts and add it's own aspects of style to the space based science fiction genre but it was hardly 'unique' in it's creation or presentation and borrowed HEAVILY from previous science fiction films/series/stories that came before it.

I'd say it's unique in being a strong brand that continues on after 50 years. It's had its peaks and valleys, but as of now the original show is still a popular and beloved show. You can't really say that of Gunsmoke today.

 

[cooleddie74]

Trek is full of impossible nonsense that's not based in science and always has been.

Yep, pretty much. Parallel Earths in our same timeline and galaxy where signs are in English and people being reduced back to children and then back to adults, only the bald officers don't get to keep their childhood hair when they resume being adults?

The second example is the worst. That's just cruel.

 

[jaime]

As opposed to say, the first season of TNG, which some here hold up as the "real Star Trek"?

IMHO, some keep comparing apples an oranges, i.e. cherry-picking some handful of favorite episodes out of a 7 year run rather than comparing first season with first season.

HERE is what we suffered through in first season TNG:

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Is THAT some of the "good writing" that we are all supposed to be pining for? It is horrid. We are introduced to the poster-boy for Mary Sue characters, who is literally escorted straight to the Captain's chair... because Mary Sue. And we get a "new vision" for Star Trek, where a crowd of people who do not belong on a bridge of a Starfleet vessel, from Doctors to Counsellors to Mary Sue child characters -- are given permanent assigned seats there.

McCoy would show up on TOS's bridge, but generally in terms of dialogue or exchanging information connected to the storyline. He didn't have a station there, because his job was in the infirmary. But with TNG, the Doctor has to have a special chair right next to the Captain, because... well she is special, and so on. After all, Picard was overcome with poorly acted emotion when we see this scene, so that means that now a Doctor is on a large team of co-Captains.

These first episodes of Discovery are written way better than the drivel of first season TNG, IMNSHO.

Never thought I would defend Wesley or S1...but let’s not forget the relationship between the Crushers and Picard, and that this is the son of the man who died on Picards watch, his best friend. It’s not really Mary Sue territory is it?
And that chair is a generic visitors chair, mission specialist chair....mainly used by Troi because that’s how Picard runs things.
If Kirk had a single first officer, instead of the combined ExO and Science Officer, there may have been two seats on his enterprise, more like Voyager. And by series four, when he realise Bones is always hovering, maybe he would bring up a bar stool or something.
Charlie X was shown the bridge in TOS and he was just hitching a ride. Wesley at worst is provided some nepotism before becoming a ranked trainee and officer. Maybe he needed a job in engineering instead of the helm, but, in the shows set up, the helm was going free now Geordi had gone below decks, and Worf had tactical now rather than playing the science station slot machines.
Was Wesley a bit of a Mary Sue? For Gene? Maybe. Mainly he’s just the teen audience identification figure attempt, and we see his kin everywhere in the time period....SeaQuest DSV for example. The kid genius character had been around a while by then too.
Maybe if Wesley had stayed Leslie we wouldn’t even have this convo.

 

[eschaton]

McCoy would show up on TOS's bridge, but generally in terms of dialogue or exchanging information connected to the storyline. He didn't have a station there, because his job was in the infirmary. But with TNG, the Doctor has to have a special chair right next to the Captain, because... well she is special, and so on. After all, Picard was overcome with poorly acted emotion when we see this scene, so that means that now a Doctor is on a large team of co-Captains.

Woah, hold on there. Troi sat in a special seat next to Picard, but IIRC, Beverly Crusher wasn't on the bridge too frequently. She usually sat off on the side, rather than on a real seat, if she happened to be there.

These first episodes of Discovery are written way better than the drivel of first season TNG, IMNSHO.

It's hard to be worse. I think only TOS season 3 was worse than TNG season 1. I mean, I didn't like much of Voyager or Enterprise, but it was just relentlessly mediocre, not actually awful.

 

[jaime]

Yep, pretty much. Parallel Earths in our same timeline and galaxy where signs are in English and people being reduced back to children and then back to adults, only the bald officers don't get to keep their childhood hair when they resume being adults?

The second example is the worst. That's just cruel.

I think the parallel earths as approached in sixties trek come from different theory to parallel universe...the idea that another world somewhere could by chance be almost identical to our earth, in much the same way as different cultures on earth may evolve identical things in isolation to each other. (For example, the great flood exists in basically every culture on earth, cultures will have independently developed things like the wheel, but then you get more esoteric concepts like manners, knights of some form, chivalry, feudal hierarchies that strongly mirror each other...)
That’s the things they were thinking about, before theory changed and new facts come into play. By the standards of the day, I would say Miri is a damn sight more believable than a mouldy universe allowing instant travel, but hey, what would I know...they are probably about the same level.

 

[BillJ]

Yep, pretty much. Parallel Earths in our same timeline and galaxy where signs are in English and people being reduced back to children and then back to adults, only the bald officers don't get to keep their childhood hair when they resume being adults?

The most egregious non-sense? They haven't found a cure for male pattern baldness.

 

[cooleddie74]

I don't mind Miri's planet on the conceptual level but TOS due to budgetary constraints of the time dipped into that well more than once and after the first few planets that looked like 1960s Earth or Ancient Rome it began to be a little silly, but TOS did manage to sell those episodes well. They were thoughtful and more entertaining than they probably had any right to be, which is more than I can say for other Trek episodes in other series about planets with a cultural development that strongly resembles that of Earth.

"Blink of an Eye" being a key exception. That isn't just a great Voyager episode, it's a great Star Trek episode period.

 

[Feron]

Never thought I would defend Wesley or S1...but let’s not forget the relationship between the Crushers and Picard, and that this is the son of the man who died on Picards watch, his best friend. It’s not really Mary Sue territory is it?

And so of course if a Captain gets all emotionally stirred because he was friends with the dead Crusher dad, that means it is a great command idea to place his 15 year old boy who hasn't even graduated Starfleet academy on the bridge, because feelings and Mary Sue.

Let's just say that websites literally called "The Mary Sue" devote articles about Wesley. And in case you don't notice, this article has the sarcasm dialed up to 11.

https://www.themarysue.com/why-wesley-crusher-was-awesome/

And that chair is a generic visitors chair, mission specialist chair....mainly used by Troi because that’s how Picard runs things.

It is indeed how Picard "runs things" (an oxymoron), which is horrid. Instead of say, judging people by their merits, training, and specialties he has a bridge that looks like a living room where he and his pals can watch what is happening on the Big Screen. His large team of co-Captains are not there because of any logical or logistical reason, but because it makes Jean Luc feel good. Plus, of course, "Bev" makes it plain that she will feel insulted if she doesn't have her very special chair. It doesn't matter that she is a Doctor and is supposed to be treating people in the infirmary, because of "feelings" she will feel insulted if she isn't seated right next to Jean Luc as a co-Captain. And of course her untrained son should be in charge, because Mary Sue.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[GeekUSACarl]

False premise.

So says the career naysayer.

I'll stick by it.

 

[eschaton]

And of course her untrained son should be in charge, because Mary Sue.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Quite honestly, the cast reaction to Wesley in early TNG was far, far more irritating than Wesley himself.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Quite honestly, the cast reaction to Wesley in early TNG was far, far more irritating than Wesley himself.

You might be right, and I'm probably one of those over reactors, but I thought his character was silly and hard to enjoy, I liked the IDEA of the character but.... jesus, I didn't like the execution, at all.