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Spoilers Supergirl - Season 3

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I looked at the transcript of s03e01, and although it's clearly Trump... The only clue that the Speaker is Trump is that he is a "Pathological liar" which is hardly respectful, no?

Is this Marsden's first or second term?

She may have inherited the racist wall, and then had to figure out how to pivot the project into something less racist... Which is as insincere as Trump trying to bury Obama's legacy.
 
I finally had a chance to watch the episode earlier today, and my initial feelings on it were that it was a bit of a "wash" since I really liked the stuff on Mars but couldn't stand the B-plot with Maggie and her father (who, BTW, has a different, Hispanic last name than his daughter, which leads me to believe that "Sawyer" is her aunt's last name [and/or possibly her mother's maiden name]), but as I've had more time to think about it, the Mars stuff ultimately was good enough to justify giving the episode as a whole a positive rating.

I can't remember if I said this earlier here or not, but Marsdin being President - and an alien - doesn't mean that Oscar Rojas' comment about how "they're building a wall" can't be true, since there are ways for Congress to appropriate funding for and pursue the building of a wall without Marsdin being able to do anything about it.

When I first heard about Kara rolling up in J'onn's "space car" blaring Britney Spears and putting on the "I'm lost" act, I wasn't sure what to think, but after having seen the episode, it actually worked, and was a nice bit of levity in what was otherwise a really heavy episode.

M'yrinn J'onzz being played by Carl Lumbly was cool because it continues an Arrowverse tradition of characters' parent(s) being played by actors who've previously played the character of whom they're the parent (Helen Slater as Kara's mom, John Henry Shipp as Barry's father), but I think they kind of missed an opportunity to make a reference to the fact that he voiced J'onn in animation. I did like the way he didn't trust J'onn at first, although I was a little confused as to why he couldn't have just done what he did to Kara and 'read' her to see that J'onn was in fact telling the truth. I was also confused as to whether or not he could physically see, since there were parts during the episode where it seemed to me that they were trying to imply that he'd lost his eyesight.

I wasn't sure if the writers were setting Til'all to be antagonistic or not, so it was nice to see him ultimately be the one to give the staff to J'onn, M'yrinn, and Kara to take back to Earth with them, although I'm not entirely sure hiding a weapon that powerful on Earth is such a good idea.

I would rather have seen Samantha and Ruby this episode than have to watch Maggie deal with her father's homophobia and her giving him a chance he didn't deserve, but the Mars stuff, as noted, was really good and ultimately 'saved' the episode for me on the whole, so it gets an 8.75.
 
To me though this felt like the safe way to go more than something I feel is the most common form of homophobia. Either they want to bring him back so they don't want him to come off to much like a monster or they are afraid to put out the idea that people who face racism can also have racism just as equal as what alt right types have. I think the implication is that if her dad never faced racism he would be okay with her being gay but to me most homophobia usually comes from the same place no matter who has it.

That's why is was an immature, asinine script. His race/racism experiences should not have been used as a "my thing is as bad as yours"/balancing act moment by Maggie, as its not remotely true to history, or the current state of affairs. Instead came off like the work of clueless hacks with an agenda--usually from white liberals feeling they can easily speak for and/or represent the life and experiences of everyone else, which is patently offensive.

If this series wants to stand on a soapbox, then have the stones to take the father/daughter argument where it should have gone: his religious beliefs being the stronger motivator, where he (in the hands of competent writers) would have laid out his issues, which would force Maggie to confront that specific matter.
 
I'm fully in the camp that this was two episodes in one. The Mars plotline was terrific. The Maggie story was terrible. I'm so tired of liberal politics being shoved down the viewers' throats. I watch the show for the stuff on Mars, but if I wasn't watching live, I could have fastforwarded the anti-Trump whining and missed nothing.

It's very frustrating because I like all the other DC shows. If the writers want to go in this direction, make a spinoff for Alex and see how that goes. But ever since Trump won, the writers of this particular show have been more concerned with politics than telling good stories.

It stinks because that Mars stuff shows what they can do when they drop the left wing propaganda and just write a comic book story.
 
The Mars stuff was stupidly small universe.

John's daddy is alive? And only he can lead them to a Superweapon that will... What?

The White Martian leadership rules Mars, and millions if not billions or White Martians, who do not need a super weapon to take out 12 guys, which as far as we know is the sum total of the resistance, which are resisting what? The Green Maritans were killed off 2 centuries ago, sure its sad, but are any of you concerned about what happened to the Ottoman Empire in the 1920s? I would like to know what the resistance is protesting, because I doubt it has much to do about a 2 century old genocide, unless they are morons.

It's like with Palpatine needing a big gun to blow up planets, when he OWNS ALL THE PLANETS.
 
It would be nice if they James Olson'ed the Alex and Maggie relationship, I'm here to watch a Superhero show not 2 people in a relationship soap opera. This episode could have used James as Guardian to cover for Kara whilst she was away. Word got out Supergirl wasn't in town and small time crooks seized an opportunity to run wild.
 
I do like shipping, but anything is better than Mon-El and Kara, so Maggie can stay, although I get this feeling that Maggie is going to get whacked at her wedding.

Has Eliza been single for a decade?

We need to pair her off.
 
I was a little confused as to why he couldn't have just done what he did to Kara and 'read' her to see that J'onn was in fact telling the truth.

He'd spent years as a captive of the White Martians (the bad ones), who'd no doubt employed every possible deception to trick him into opening his mind and letting them discover where the weapon was. So he didn't dare try to read anyone, since it could be a trap. That's why he refused to open his mind to J'onn long enough to confirm telepathically that it was really his son. And so he would've resisted opening his mind to Kara for the same reason.


I was also confused as to whether or not he could physically see, since there were parts during the episode where it seemed to me that they were trying to imply that he'd lost his eyesight.

Since they're shapeshifters, what he could see was irrelevant to him. Seeing wasn't believing.
 
The fact that the majority of the conversation about this episode is focused on Maggie's father (and the occasional whinging about having lesbians on this show) is exactly the proof why these kind of episodes are needed.

Frankly, it's concerning that there's very little sympathy for Maggie on one hand, and a lot of talk about her father as a sympathetic character. No amount of abuse endured excuses abusing others, especially one's own children. He is a dipshit who abandoned his daughter because she "shamed him" by being gay. Her parents removed all her pictures. They erased her.

Yeah, her father isn't presented as a moustache twirling villain, but the point of the episode was not for the viewer, and especially not Maggie to understand or sympathize with his reasoning, because his reasoning is bullshit. He's just doing what a lot of homophobic parents are doing, deflecting their bigotry onto others, blaming others for the horrifying way in which they treat their children. The point was for Maggie to realize she doesn't need that kind of toxicity in her life, and that family isn't blood, it's acceptance.

It's not about understanding prejudice, it's about understanding what it's like living with that prejudice coming from those who should be closest to you. I really wish we saw her supportive aunt to contrast just how wrong her father is because this seems to have been lost on some of you.

I does seem to me some of you picked the wrong character to empathize with here, and it might do you good to rewatch this episode from Maggie's perspective. But those who really should, just like her father, I doubt they will...
 
He'd spent years as a captive of the White Martians (the bad ones), who'd no doubt employed every possible deception to trick him into opening his mind and letting them discover where the weapon was. So he didn't dare try to read anyone, since it could be a trap. That's why he refused to open his mind to J'onn long enough to confirm telepathically that it was really his son. And so he would've resisted opening his mind to Kara for the same reason.

Kryptonian minds can't be read by Martian telepathy, so M'yrinn didn't scan Kara's mind to find out she was a Kryptonian; he just 'reached out' to her mentally, and I was confused as to why he didn't do the same thing with J'onn, which, as evidenced by how little it took for him to discern Kara's nature, would've been easy for him to do.
 
The fact that the majority of the conversation about this episode is focused on Maggie's father (and the occasional whinging about having lesbians on this show) is exactly the proof why these kind of episodes are needed.

Frankly, it's concerning that there's very little sympathy for Maggie on one hand, and a lot of talk about her father as a sympathetic character. No amount of abuse endured excuses abusing others, especially one's own children. He is a dipshit who abandoned his daughter because she "shamed him" by being gay. Her parents removed all her pictures. They erased her.

Yeah, her father isn't presented as a moustache twirling villain, but the point of the episode was not for the viewer, and especially not Maggie to understand or sympathize with his reasoning, because his reasoning is bullshit. He's just doing what a lot of homophobic parents are doing, deflecting their bigotry onto others, blaming others for the horrifying way in which they treat their children. The point was for Maggie to realize she doesn't need that kind of toxicity in her life, and that family isn't blood, it's acceptance.

It's not about understanding prejudice, it's about understanding what it's like living with that prejudice coming from those who should be closest to you. I really wish we saw her supportive aunt to contrast just how wrong her father is because this seems to have been lost on some of you.

I does seem to me some of you picked the wrong character to empathize with here, and it might do you good to rewatch this episode from Maggie's perspective. But those who really should, just like her father, I doubt they will...

It's a superhero show, not a show "whine about Trump" show. Again, if they want to make a show about these issues, do a spinoff and see how it goes.
 
Frankly, it's concerning that there's very little sympathy for Maggie on one hand, and a lot of talk about her father as a sympathetic character. No amount of abuse endured excuses abusing others, especially one's own children. He is a dipshit who abandoned his daughter because she "shamed him" by being gay. Her parents removed all her pictures. They erased her.

You're misconstruing my intention. Absolutely, Oscar was in the wrong. That's a given. I'm just saying it's an interesting bit of writing that they made him wrong for something other than the obvious reasons.

Our culture seems to have gotten to this place where any disagreement with another person requires damning them utterly as irredeemable and unworthy of any attempt to relate to them or understand them. That's a terrible mindset, because it just creates impenetrable divides and keeps us from reaching out to learn from each other and find common ground. People don't always do terrible things because they're one-note evil monsters. Sometimes they mean well but they just have toxic ideas that they don't understand are wrong. Sometimes they're just flawed or selfish. Sometimes they're deeply torn between conflicting ideas and priorities and make the wrong choice. And that means that sometimes people who do terrible things can learn better, can admit their mistakes and atone for them and make amends with those they wronged. That's surely a better outcome to aspire to than just staying enemies forever. If Kara could forgive her Aunt Astra for all the evil she did, if Kara could forgive Mon-El for being part of a cruel and unjust monarchy, then surely it's not wrong for Maggie to hope she could forgive her father and reach him and heal their broken relationship. That doesn't mean what he did wasn't terrible -- it means that redemption is possible for even the worst wrongs.

For that matter, we're talking about fictional characters. Getting your audience to understand and sympathize with characters they disagree with, getting them to understand why those characters make their choices and believe they're right or necessary, is just good writing. You don't have to agree with someone's thinking to understand why they think that way. As a writer myself, I have to be able to get into the heads of characters whose values I disagree with -- otherwise I wouldn't be able to write believable, nuanced antagonists, or protagonists with a diverse range of personalities and values. The ability to empathize with all characters, even the ones who do awful things, is a necessary skill in my line of work. So it should not be taken to mean that I approve of what a character does or wish to excuse their actions. It's just part of the skill of creating well-drawn characters, and as a writer, I appreciate the skill that Supergirl's writers applied in making Oscar a multidimensional antagonist rather than a cardboard one.


Kryptonian minds can't be read by Martian telepathy, so M'yrinn didn't scan Kara's mind to find out she was a Kryptonian; he just 'reached out' to her mentally, and I was confused as to why he didn't do the same thing with J'onn, which, as evidenced by how little it took for him to discern Kara's nature, would've been easy for him to do.

It would've been incredibly hard to do emotionally. He'd resigned himself to his son's death. He couldn't let himself believe it was possible that J'onn was still alive, because it would just hurt too much if he let himself hope and it turned out to be untrue. He was trapped by his fear, just as Oscar was trapped by his fear of what Maggie was and what might happen to her. The difference is that M'yrnn was more successful at transcending that fear. Perhaps because he was telepathic, so once he did find the courage to reach out, he simply knew the truth. Oscar found the courage to reach out to Maggie, but he couldn't really open his mind enough to understand or experience the happiness of Maggie's life. So he remained trapped by his fears.
 
The fact that the majority of the conversation about this episode is focused on Maggie's father (and the occasional whinging about having lesbians on this show) is exactly the proof why these kind of episodes are needed.

Frankly, it's concerning that there's very little sympathy for Maggie on one hand, and a lot of talk about her father as a sympathetic character. No amount of abuse endured excuses abusing others, especially one's own children. He is a dipshit who abandoned his daughter because she "shamed him" by being gay. Her parents removed all her pictures. They erased her.

Yeah, her father isn't presented as a moustache twirling villain, but the point of the episode was not for the viewer, and especially not Maggie to understand or sympathize with his reasoning, because his reasoning is bullshit. He's just doing what a lot of homophobic parents are doing, deflecting their bigotry onto others, blaming others for the horrifying way in which they treat their children. The point was for Maggie to realize she doesn't need that kind of toxicity in her life, and that family isn't blood, it's acceptance.

It's not about understanding prejudice, it's about understanding what it's like living with that prejudice coming from those who should be closest to you. I really wish we saw her supportive aunt to contrast just how wrong her father is because this seems to have been lost on some of you.

I does seem to me some of you picked the wrong character to empathize with here, and it might do you good to rewatch this episode from Maggie's perspective. But those who really should, just like her father, I doubt they will...
Excellent post. I'm in full agreement, and it's essentially why I really loved this episode.

One point, though. Maggie changed her story. First, she was dropped off at her aunt's, then she was dropped off at the side of the road. In my mind, pending more information, this calls in to question whether the aunt was even a real person. I may have missed something, but that's the question I was left with: was the aunt even real? (I hope Maggie found an actual aunt willing to raise her, though.)
 
Our culture seems to have gotten to this place where any disagreement with another person requires damning them utterly as irredeemable and unworthy of any attempt to relate to them or understand them. That's a terrible mindset, because it just creates impenetrable divides and keeps us from reaching out to learn from each other and find common ground.

That is a valid point in a very general sense, but this isn't an ideological disagreement between two random people on the internet, it is between a child seeking love and acceptance from a parent that rejects them.

The understanding here really should come from only one direction, but it doesn't, and sometimes that understanding never comes. On the other hand, from the other direction there are often tremendous efforts to understand why they're being rejected, and that constant question is a burden for a lot of LGBTQ+ people who find themselves in that situation.

I know you mean well, but this is one of those cases where advice that "both sides should find common ground" is very insensitive, because I guarantee you that Maggie and people in similar situations have spent most of their lives trying to understand their parents, and there's a real chance that even if they do manage to understand their reasons, they'll still be rejected, like Maggie is.
 
It's not like Maggie wasn't reaching out. She reached out in a major way, even after being left by the side of the freaking road and erased from her parents' lives.
 
^Bit of a side-note, but I think people are misinterpreting the thing with the photos. There's no childhood photos of Maggie on the board because she simply doesn't own any.
Presumably, when her parents dumped her in the street, they didn't pack her a copy of the family album. They didn't "erase" her from their lives, otherwise Maggie's father wouldn't have still had that picture of her in his wallet all this time.

Doesn't make the whole situation any less shitty, but there it is.

I does seem to me some of you picked the wrong character to empathize with here, and it might do you good to rewatch this episode from Maggie's perspective. But those who really should, just like her father, I doubt they will...
Just to clarify since my previous post may have made it seem like I fit into the above category: I don't sympathise with Maggie's father at all. I do however appreciate that they put forward a nuanced and believable (if reprehensible) attitude in an otherwise well meaning human being. Not because I think homophobes deserve a fair shake or anything of the sort, but because it makes Maggie's POV all the more sympathetic and relatable if we can see why it's so hard for her to get past this sudden and traumatic abandonment.

It'd be so easy if they just portrayed him as an irredeemable hate spewing bigot, or religious nutcase. But they didn't; they took the more challenging route. In reality, while such cartoonish irredeemably prejudiced people certainly exist (I've even met a few), but really speaking most are more like Maggie's father. Mostly level-headed, intelligent and well meaning people who for whatever reason has some prejudice they cannot or will not overcome or even recognise as prejudice. This to me lends itself to some self reflection and examination because nobody is immune to prejudice in one form or another.

All that said, yes, Maggie's father is unquestionably in the wrong and she is well rid of him.
 
I'd say that Maggie's dad was making an effort to reach out too, he came after all, but he was just sadly past the limit of what he was capable of.
 
The understanding here really should come from only one direction, but it doesn't, and sometimes that understanding never comes.

I'm not talking about the characters' understanding. I'm talking about the ability of an audience member, or of a writer, to understand the reasons why characters think their choices are justified or necessary, even if we disagree with those choices. Empathy with other points of view is what fiction is for. It lets us look at the world through different eyes and thereby broaden our horizons. And understanding the worldviews and feelings of people who do wrong is important too, not because it absolves them or excuses their actions, but because understanding what motivates people to do wrong is necessary if we want to change their minds or to keep ourselves and others from making the same wrong choices. That's why a lot of fiction focuses on sympathetic villains. It's not saying their actions are right, it's just getting into their heads and exploring why they choose to do wrong. And the fact that people often do wrong for what they believe to be the right reasons is important to understand.


I know you mean well, but this is one of those cases where advice that "both sides should find common ground" is very insensitive

That is completely twisting my words and I resent the mischaracterization. Obviously Oscar is 100 percent in the wrong here. I have said that explicitly. But understanding why he made that wrong choice allows for the possibility of helping him to understand why it's wrong and thereby getting him to change his mind. Just damning him doesn't fix anything.

And again, it's bad writing to reduce everything to nothing but polemics and politics. Writing is about characters, and a story that lets characters and their relationships be complex is better than one that just makes them ideological sock puppets.
 
A couple of things:
- Maggie's father left her on the street in front of her aunt's house.

- We learned from the episode that Maggie's aunt kept in contact with her parents even though they didn't keep in contact with her directly, and so she likely got the information that they'd removed all pictures of her from their home through her aunt.
 
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