Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[137th Gebirg]

I think it's the other way around. We have alot of really nasty shit being pushed on us these days as "normal" and said shit is increasingly hard to swallow. Our stories are getting darker to reflect this fact, because we need characters we're able to relate to on some basic level.

The hope and optimism of the 1960s and 70s got a bit of a retread in TNG, but it's long since stopped resonating with viewers. For a lot of people, their daily existence is actually "I'm surrounded by people who think I'm an asshole, in a system designed to fuck me over, for a boss whose singular talent is covering his own ass, in a country that resents the fact that I've survived as long as I have." Star Trek is and has always been a product of the society that created if. If Discovery is dark and grim and unpleasant, it's because America has become a dark, grim and unpleasant place to live for a frighteningly large number of people. Some of those people want to see stories about how someone in a similar situation manages to overcome it and maybe improve their situation at least a little. That's the Catharsis implied in good fiction: it helps you process all those unpleasant and indigestible emotions of daily life without slipping into existential dread.

It kind of makes me wonder how a show like The Walking Dead is so popular. It's the most miserable world one can possibly live in. There is barely a single ray of hope and one wonders how these characters can possibly go on after being kicked in the balls in damn near every episode. What keeps people watching? Is it to see if the end of the show brings the final cure or destruction to the walkers, allowing the survivors to "live happily ever after" and rebuild their world, or is it something more schadenfreude, where we see them living these horrible lives, and we, the viewers think, "Man, I guess my life isn't so bad after all compared to these poor bastards!" I'm an avid watcher of the show and I honestly still don't have the answer to that question.

 

[Mr Awe]

Lorca could have left the cell door open, and told Harry to find his own way off.

"And if you follow us, I'll shoot you."

Riiight. Let a collaborator lose to report to the Klingons. Key ingredient to any successful escape plan!

 

[Feron]

Let me put it this way:

If you went to the Nazis and told them where the resistance fighters live, you're a collaborateur and deserve to be punished.

If the Nazis come to your house, and take you to their torture chamber by force, nobody is going to hold you accountable if you break and tell them where the resistance fighters are. Not even the resistance fighters themselves.

This is actually something for which historical precedence exists en masse. This happened regularly.

And Mudd was never tortured. He openly assisted the Klingons without them ever touching him.

 

[Gonzo]

Um, you better check. Mudd is collaborating with the Klingons.

If you don't understand that basic fact, I can understand your viewpoint better now.

He is and he seemed pretty proud of it.

 

[Rahul]

And Mudd was never tortured. He openly assisted the Klingons without them ever touching him.

"Threat of torture" is enough in this case. Especially for a civilian. Also: You don't know that. He just didn't look like he was tortured recently in his face. But you didn't see under his jacket, did you??

 

[Mr Awe]

You guys keep throwing the word "collaborator" around. I don't think you know what a collaborator is.

Hint: Someone willing to sell out his fellow inmates to evade torture and death ISN'T "collaboration". Not in the sense of treason.

Mudd was working with the Klingons against his fellow prisoners. That's a collaborator. It makes him an untrustworthy ally. Revealing plans and including him in the escape would've been foolish. Mudd clearly would not have had their backs during the risky escape if things had gotten difficult, which they did.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Basic human rights should not be something "worth discussing", and those who do aren't "little fucking trolls".

Wasn't talking about you in that regard. I most certainly do not think you are a troll. I find your posts to be most compelling, in fact. Read what I said carefully.

 

[Feron]

"Threat of torture" is enough in this case. Especially for a civilian. Also: You don't know that. He just didn't look like he was tortured recently in his face. But you didn't see under his jacket, did you??

Making stuff up doesn't support your case. He wasn't tortured.

 

[Rahul]

He is and he seemed pretty proud of it.

Yeah, no. He was forced to comply, by threat of torture.

Unrelated, he really was a dick towards Starfleet officers. In his own words, because he makes them responsible for the war and the torture he faces.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Agreed. Constructive criticism is one thing. I was quite critical of the first two episodes myself and still think they were bad for selling this series to an audience. But some of the comments I've read here show people taking this stuff WAY too serious.

One commonality I'm finding is that the majority of people who don't like DIS are TNG fans. This is definitely NOT the show for you if you're wanting a show similiar to that. This is much more DS9 than TNG. Probably explains why I like it because DS9 is my favorite Trek series

I was raised on TNG as a child. I love it till this day. I also love DIS because it’s different.

 

[Rahul]

Making stuff up doesn't support your case. He wasn't tortured.

Again: THREAT of torture is already enough. That's why it is forbidden under pretty much any international law.

 

[Mr Awe]

But that's not Lorca. He *is* a cold, calculating asshole. And I do understand fully your problem with it vis a vis Trek. But like I said, at THIS point, I'm willing to wait to see where his character arc goes.

I'm suspecting he's on a redemption arc (which may end in his death), but we'll see. I definitely want to learn more about this guy even though I don't like him, a sign of good writing.

 

[Gonzo]

The two sides will never agree and quite frankly this thread has been derailed enough with such a pointless discussion.

 

[Feron]

Yeah, no. He was forced to comply, by threat of torture.

Unrelated, he really was a dick towards Starfleet officers. In his own words, because he makes them responsible for the war and the torture he faces.

In other words, he sides with the Klingons against the Federation. His rhetoric is the same that the Klingons spout. They have no more obligation to help him than they have to help a Klingon kill them.

 

[Mr Awe]

Again: Mudd wasn't a traitor. He only collaborated with his captors in so far to evade torture and death. He had a listening device. In a cell that most likely was bugged anyway. That's pretty understandable and forgivable for a fucking civilian.

So, now you're saying he is a collaborator?

 

[Rahul]

In other words, he sides with the Klingons against the Federation. His rhetoric is the same that the Klingons spout. They have no more obligation to help him than they have to help a Klingon kill them.

No. He was "the little guy" who got crushed inbetween.

He was forced to comply. By threat of torture. He had no choice. That is WAY different than willingly complying.

And yes, you DO have a moral obligation to save him, if you have the chance. Hell, people buy back hostages from terror organisation that went HIKING in Afghanistan. Again: Being dumb, or being a dick, or being selfish DOES. NOT. take away your human rights.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If the Nazis come to your house, kidnap you and put you in their torture chamber, nobody is going to hold you accountable if you break and tell them where the resistance fighters are. Not even the resistance fighters themselves.

That's false equivalence, though... for one thing, Mudd wasn't kidnapped at all, he was arrested for trespassing in Klingon space. His collaboration in this case isn't because he "broke," it's because he doesn't WANT to be tortured and the Klingons know this. It's essentially a plea bargain: he helps the Klingons interrogate their prisoners and the Klingons give him something in return (probably his freedom, eventually, seeing how he obviously doesn't spend the rest of his life on that ship).

So you're right when you say Mudd isn't really a "collaborator" as such. "Collaborator" implies he's a POW or participant in the war. Really, he's just a criminal and a snitch, and seeing how he actually DID break the law, Lorca has no moral or legal obligation to rescue him.

The fact that he left him TO THE KLINGONS is what makes this a dick move. Because more likely than not, the Klingons are going to be pissed about the escape and will almost certainly blame Mudd for it. His plea bargain goes out the window, and he's going to be cracking dilithium in Rura Penthe by the end of the week.

 

[Rahul]

So, now you're saying he is a collaborator?

Since you clearly didn't read it:

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration.

What you allude to is the former. What happened in this episode the latter.

Nobody was punishing resistance fighters that got caught and spilled their beans. That was to be expected. What was punished was collaboration that went further than what was forced upon, for example love affairs with the enemy, or being part of their police force and being part of the oppression. Not breaking under threat of torture. Never.

Let me put it this way:

If you went to the Nazis and told them where the resistance fighters live, you're a collaborateur and deserve to be punished.

If the Nazis come to your house, kidnap you and put you in their torture chamber, nobody is going to hold you accountable if you break and tell them where the resistance fighters are. Not even the resistance fighters themselves.

This is actually something for which historical precedence exists en masse. This happened regularly.

Forced collaboration, especially under threat of physical violence, DOES NOT make you a traitor!

 

[indranee]

You might be mistaking "rooting for" with "interested in." I think he's an interesting character. Not sure that we're supposed to be rooting for him. I'm guessing he's a character who needs to be redeemed. We're just in the early stages of that arc.

well said. kudos.

 

[eschaton]

No. He was "the little guy" who got crushed inbetween.

He was forced to comply. By threat of torture. He had no choice. That is WAY different than willingly complying.

And yes, you DO have a moral obligation to save him, if you have the chance. Hell, people buy back hostages from terror organisation that went HIKING in Afghanistan. Again: Being dumb, or being a dick, or being selfish DOES. NOT. take away your human rights.

Do we actually know he's a prisoner of the Klingons? We only have his word to go by. He might have agreed to pretend to be a prisoner and sit in a cell with Starfleet POWs for intelligence purposes.