Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[Mr Awe]

We're debating whether or not leaving a civilian behind to be tortured and possibly killed is acceptable. There should be no fucking debate at all about this kind of treatment.

Yet here we are. Thanks Discovery!

We're discussing whether a collaborator should've been involved with a prison escape attempt. That's very different. You should be debating that.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It isn't about being a TNG fan. I actually think it hasn't aged well. But it is about wanting something positive. Doing negativity on TV is like shooting fish in a barrel nowadays. It is simply everywhere.

"Don't trust the government!", "Brown religious people are bad!", "The ends justify the means!"

I think Hollywood's fascination with dark and grim is a component of what has led us down the path we are on.

I think it's the other way around. We have alot of really nasty shit being pushed on us these days as "normal" and said shit is increasingly hard to swallow. Our stories are getting darker to reflect this fact, because we need characters we're able to relate to on some basic level.

The hope and optimism of the 1960s and 70s got a bit of a retread in TNG, but it's long since stopped resonating with viewers. For a lot of people, their daily existence is actually "I'm surrounded by people who think I'm an asshole, in a system designed to fuck me over, for a boss whose singular talent is covering his own ass, in a country that resents the fact that I've survived as long as I have." Star Trek is and has always been a product of the society that created if. If Discovery is dark and grim and unpleasant, it's because America has become a dark, grim and unpleasant place to live for a frighteningly large number of people. Some of those people want to see stories about how someone in a similar situation manages to overcome it and maybe improve their situation at least a little. That's the Catharsis implied in good fiction: it helps you process all those unpleasant and indigestible emotions of daily life without slipping into existential dread.

 

[Mr Awe]

You REALLY need to check up what the word "collaborateur" means, and in which types of context it is used. This is not one of them.

Um, you better check. Mudd is collaborating with the Klingons.

If you don't understand that basic fact, I can understand your viewpoint better now.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Saru disappointed me when he wanted to keep torturing the creature to save Lorca.

That bothered me as well. Even when presented with scientific evidence for what was going on with the tardigrade, he still persisted in using it without even considering other options. I chalk that up more to his inexperience as a leader and, to be fair, his role as a "prey species" almost biologically and physiologically disqualifies him for command. You need a kind of aggression to be perceived as an effective leader. TOS' "The Enemy Within" showed that - when the hyper-aggressive caveman Kirk split off, nice, sensitive, thoughtful Kirk could barely function in the Center Seat. He recognized that both were needed to survive and to be Captain. Saru simply doesn't have that side. He's all-thoughtful, which is totally fine, but he should never be made to sit in the Chair. That, coupled with his inexperience almost screwed the pooch for all of them. Reading a list of names of the greatest captains who ever lived didn't help him at all, obviously, unless he spent the entire night going through their dockets to see everything they did to make them "great" in the first place. I don't think he had that kind of time.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

To me, his refusal to get treatment for his eyes (and thus leaving himself openly vulnerable to torture and pain) is a personal penance he observes.

Not just you, Lorca pretty much states it himself during dialogue I missed on the first two viewings. On the peacock, Tyler asks if "the thing his your eyes" happened when he destroyed the Buran. His response was "We choose our own pain".

 

[Mr Awe]

Maybe you should revisit this episode then after Discovery has aired 7 seasons.

Oh trust me, he will be watching for 7 seasons, bitching and moaning the entire time!

 

[Rahul]

Um, you better check. Mudd is collaborating with the Klingons.

If you don't understand that basic fact, I can understand your viewpoint better now.

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration, e.g. by means of threats of torture or death.

No one is ever going to lawfully punish you for the latter one. Ever. Read up.

 

[Longinus]

Saru disappointed me when he wanted to keep torturing the creature to save Lorca.

I think his action were motivated by his desire to save Lorca. What happened to Georgiou clouded his judgement. He was not going to lose another captain. He was certainly in the wrong, but I can understand where he was coming from.

Though this would have worked better if we had not heard in the last episode how Saru kinda despises Lorca...

 

[Feron]

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration, e.g. by means of threats of death or torture.

No one is ever going to lawfully punish you for the latter one. Read up.

Under your standard, none of the Vichy French during WWII would have been considered collaboraters, the Nazis had occupied France after all.

And yet the French public did not remember the Vichy kindly when the Allies liberated France. They were (properly) considered as traitors and collaboraters who had sent many innocent people to their deaths.

 

[Mr Awe]

Saru disappointed me when he wanted to keep torturing the creature to save Lorca.

Yes, and my impression is that we were supposed to see that as a mistake as Saru seemed to himself. He asked the computer not to evaluate his performance for a reason. I thought the conversation between Saru and Michael at the end was perfect.

Lorca still could have left Mudd behind in the hangar bay when the craft they took was only a two-seater. Mudd is still left, still pissed, and still left with the Klingons. But Lorca looks less like a douche.

I think it's foolish to involve an untrustworthy collaborator in a risky escape. Even letting Mudd be free in the ship is a risk given the behavior he exhibited in the episode. He'd sell them out at a drop of the hat!

 

[Rahul]

Under your standard, none of the Vichy French during WWII would have been considered collaboraters, the Nazis had occupied France after all.

And yet the French public did not remember the Vichy kindly when the Allies liberated France. They were (properly) considered as traitors and collaboraters who had sent many innocent people to their deaths.

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration.

What you allude to is the former. What happened in this episode the latter.

Nobody was punishing resistance fighters that got caught and spilled their beans. That was to be expected. What was punished was collaboration that went further than what was forced upon, for example love affairs with the enemy, or being part of their police force and being part of the oppression. Not breaking under threat of torture. Never.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That is a good point... they didn't start slow like the other Treks. They got to the hard and dirty part right off the bat. Is that the biggest issue? You mean if we'd gotten to know Lorca it'd have been easier to deal with his assholsh behavior?

As I keep saying, "dealing with" Lorca's asshole behavior isn't really the issue. He IS an asshole, that's the whole point. His confession to Tyler and Mudd has this certain subtext with it: He blew up his own ship to keep his crew from being captured alive and yet HE still managed to escape somehow. Most likely this is meant to explain WHY he's an asshole, and there are shades of what's going on with Burnham there (did the mutiny really have anything to do with the outbreak of war with the Klingons? No it didn't. But it still looks really bad).

You're not supposed to condone or sympathize with him. I suspect you're supposed to UNDERSTAND him, but not to the point of being able to relate to him.

This is something that maybe needs re-iteration:

Lorcas action was completely, 100% understandable. It was also wrong as hell. Like, if one of the bad guys did it, I wouldn't be complaining. Or, if the episode would have pointed it out that Lorca clearly went over the moral even horizon in this episode, I would think "Oh, interesting, a bad guy as a Captain". That would certainly be something fresh and unexpected.

The criticism is, that Lorca's action were portrayed as something a good guy would do. And they certainly aren't. Like: I can totally see Frank Castle do the same thing, and wouldn't bat an eye. If Jack Bauer would do it, I would be annoyed for the lack of reasons. But a supposed "good guy" Starfleet Captain? That's wrong.

Which is exactly my point: Lorca's not actually a "good guy" as such. He's the asshole boss of the show, like Bob Kelso on "Scrubs" or pretty much anyone in Weyland-Yutani's corporate office. He's amoral and selfish, but he's also highly efficient, and the only thing that keeps him from being a straight up antagonist is the fact that he's not a Klingon.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Well said!

The accusations against posters who are interested in the characters are particularly detrimental to the otherwise civil discussions that are taking place. It's as if the accusers are trying to shut down discussion about their criticisms. Ironic.

Agreed. Honestly, I think for the most part the discussion has been fairly decent, and I personally hold no enmity towards those who may have an opposing viewpoint. I especially enjoy debating those who bring a thoughtful, measured and logical discourse on various subjects and it seems (at least, to me) that even those who generally dislike most aspects of Discovery still find some occasional interesting bits about it, are willing to continue to get the CAA subscription to see if something else comes up in the show that may start changing their mind a little bit.

It's those who grunt out their single-sentence blurbs, obviously hating every aspect of the show, needlessly tossing little grenades into the discussion and laughably thinking they're "contributing" anything to the debate when they're nothing more than bitter little fucking trolls whom most everyone here is either ignoring or openly mocking - as it should be.

 

[137th Gebirg]

YES!

Thank you! I was getting worried.

 

[Gonzo]

Yeah it's probably been mentioned earlier but Sisko was complicit in a political assassination to drag an entire civilization into a war. At this point, Lorca is small potatoes.

I would have done the same in both Sisko and Lorca's shoes.

 

[Feron]

There's a difference between willfull collaboration, and forced collaboration.

What you allude to is the former. What happened in this episode the latter.

Nobody was punishing resistance fighters that got could and spilled their beans. That was to be expected. What was punished was collaboration that went further than what was forced to, for example love affairs with the enemy, or being part of their police force.

In what way were the Nazis any kinder and gentler than the Klingons are?

I've seen no evidence that the Klingons ever used any force whatsoever on Mudd. He turned traitor of his own free will, and spoke of it with absolutely no shame to Lorca.

 

[Gonzo]

Yes, it is.

Of course it is, it's a textbook example.

Made famous by the actions of some individuals during the occupation of France.

 

[Rahul]

Agreed. Honestly, I think for the most part the discussion has been fairly decent, and I personally hold no enmity towards those who may have an opposing viewpoint. I especially enjoy debating those who bring a thoughtful, measured and logical discourse on various subjects and it seems (at least, to me) that even those who generally dislike most aspects of Discovery still find some occasional interesting bits about it, are willing to continue to get the CAA subscription to see if something else comes up in the show that may start changing their mind a little bit.

It's those who grunt out their single-sentence blurbs, obviously hating every aspect of the show, needlessly tossing little grenades into the discussion and laughably thinking they're "contributing" anything to the debate when they're nothing more than bitter little fucking trolls whom most everyone here is either ignoring or openly mocking - as it should be.

Basic human rights should not be something "worth discussing", and those who do aren't "little fucking trolls".

 

[Mr Awe]

"The good": Most of Discovery (except the klingon re-design).

"The bad": Lorca's behaviour this episode (past and present).
(IMO)

Just to be clear, I wasn't including you in the monotone hater category. I do agree about the Klingon redesign being one of the lesser aspects of Discovery. Although, they're growing on me a bit, but agree in general. Have them speaking English for crying out loud!!

And, I don't particularly like Lorca as a person, but I don't think we're even meant to. I'm interested in his character though. So, I still see him as a positive to the show even though he's an asshole. But, I think that is just a difference in what we're looking for in a drama.

 

[Rahul]

In what way were the Nazis any kinder and gentler than the Klingons are?

I've seen no evidence that the Klingons ever used any force whatsoever on Mudd. He turned traitor of his own free will, and spoke of it with absolutely no shame to Lorca.

Let me put it this way:

If you went to the Nazis and told them where the resistance fighters live, you're a collaborateur and deserve to be punished.

If the Nazis come to your house, kidnap you and put you in their torture chamber, nobody is going to hold you accountable if you break and tell them where the resistance fighters are. Not even the resistance fighters themselves.

This is actually something for which historical precedence exists en masse. This happened regularly.