Not according to Khan. According to Khan, Kirk owed him a visit because HE left him there. And BECAUSE he didn't follow up, people (including Khan's wife) died. According to Khan, Kirk had blood on his hands.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Not according to Khan. According to Khan, Kirk owed him a visit because HE left him there. And BECAUSE he didn't follow up, people (including Khan's wife) died. According to Khan, Kirk had blood on his hands.
Umm those 2 instances are the reason why Sisko is never mentioned in the Kirk vs Picard debate? Why isn't Janeway and Archer mentioned then? TOS and TNG were the most popular Star Trek series in terms of sheer numbers watching. That is why the debate is between Kirk and Picard.
That is a good point... they didn't start slow like the other Treks. They got to the hard and dirty part right off the bat. Is that the biggest issue? You mean if we'd gotten to know Lorca it'd have been easier to deal with his assholsh behavior?
Maybe you should revisit this episode then after Discovery has aired 7 seasons.
Khan was a nut by that point. Do you think he would've been clamoring for the Federation to check in on him if he was busy building an empire?
Why? We got to know Sisko before the war started, they made him a fleshed out character. I was saddened to see the road Sisko went down because we got to know him.
You realize Kahn was the bad guy of the movie?
As in, his actions and intentions were certainly understandable in parts, but also wrong?
Easier? No. More of an emotional impact? Absolutely.
I didn't bring up Sisko as I said DS 9 is not my thing. I'm happy to keep the events specific to the show in question and regards behaviour, to the character Lorca. We're all on the same playing field here. Every comment is based on the same (Discovery) footage we've all seen.
How about not making sweeping statements about the morality of complete strangers?
I didn't find anything sympathetic about Mudd as a character. My impression was that he was in league with the Klingons, he was mentally competent and clearly wasn't being ill-treated. If he'd been more like the Starfleet officer that we see when Lorca is first placed in the cell, it would have been a different story. If it had been shown that Mudd had been tortured to the point where he'd been broken and no longer had the correct mental faculties, I'd be much more sympathetic to his character. Instead he's an arrogant douche, who steal food from other inmates, betrays them and allows them to be tortured. Why should I feel any sympathy for him?
This is something that maybe needs re-iteration:
Lorcas action was completely, 100% understandable. It was also wrong as hell. Like, if one of the bad guys did it, I wouldn't be complaining. Or, if the episode would have pointed it out that Lorca clearly went over the moral even horizon in this episode, I would think "Oh, interesting, a bad guy as a Captain". That would certainly be something fresh and unexpected.
The criticism is, that Lorca's action were portrayed as something a good guy would do. And they certainly aren't. Like: I can totally see Frank Castle do the same thing, and wouldn't bat an eye. If Jack Bauer would do it, I would be annoyed for the lack of reasons. But a supposed "good guy" Starfleet Captain? That's wrong.
Lorcas action was completely, 100% understandable. It was also wrong as hell. Like, if one of the bad guys did it, I wouldn't be complaining. Or, if the episode would have pointed it out that Lorca clearly went over the moral even horizon in this episode, I would think "Oh, interesting, a bad guy as a Captain". That would certainly be something fresh and unexpected.
The criticism is, that Lorca's action were portrayed as something a good guy would do. And they certainly aren't. Like: I can totally see Frank Castle do the same thing, and wouldn't bat an eye. If Jack Bauer would do it, I would be annoyed for the lack of reasons. But a supposed "good guy" Starfleet Captain? That's wrong.
You are the person making sweeping statements about a complete strangers morality as well.
The difference is: I think the dude deserves the benefit of the doubt. Imprisonment and the prospect of torture can make people do nasty things, even good people. YOU on the other hand see a "douche", and immediately come to the conclusion that he also must be evil, and deserving of said punishment in the form of torture and death. I don't deny Mudd deserves punishment, he's a Con-man after all, so he probably broke a few laws and should stand for trial. But leaving him behind for certain torture and death? Because he's been kind of a dick? Come on.
Exactly. And from what we know, he died before he faced the music. And what HE did, IMO, is far worse than what we're SO FAR heard Lorca has done... I'm still waiting, though
The thing is that some of us don't have to "like" a character to, uhh, LIKE a character. Do you guys not get that? So when someone says they "like" Lorca (I'll just speak for myself here), they are not necessarily IN LOVE with that character.
Starfleet should aspire to standards, equality, and laws based on rights, not on likeability.
Exactly. And from what we know, he died before he faced the music. And what HE did, IMO, is far worse than what we're SO FAR heard Lorca has done... I'm still waiting, though
The thing is that some of us don't have to "like" a character to, uhh, LIKE a character. Do you guys not get that? So when someone says they "like" Lorca (I'll just speak for myself here), they are not necessarily IN LOVE with that character.
Fair point. I don't think Lorca is irredeemable at this point. I'm more annoyed at the episode itself than at Lorca, which clearly didn't handle this topic with the care it deserves.
And with some posters here, who are clearly of the opinion that torture and death is a-okay for a guy simply because he was both a coward and a douche.
He killed his own crew, and skated away. Not sure there could be a bigger betrayal.
I think Isaacs is doing an absolute wonderful job with the material he has been given. At the same time, the material is so one-note that it is maddening. For me, the vast majority of the problems this show has starts in the writers room. Which is a shame considering they had eighteen months to put together a coherent story with rich characters.
Oh and you think Mudd is completely sane?
When you're breaking out of a Klingon prison ship it would be unwise to have someone you cannot trust at your back.
No I'm making assumptions about a fictional character based on my impressions of how he has been written. You are the one who is making sweeping statements about the morality of other posters based on a discussion about a character from a television show.
Nothing i saw of Mudd makes me want to give him the benefit of the doubt, to me he's not a redeemable or sympathetic character as yet. Maybe this will change with his subsequent appearances maybe it won't. It's just an opinion that I have currently. No need to get bent out of shape over it.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
