Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[Vger23]

The "humans are always evil and selfishness"-type of cynicism is at least as flawed as the "humans are always perfect beings" thinking. Both are wrong. The reality is somewhere in the middle.

Isn't that what I essentially said myself?

The difference is that you're looking at the middle ground and pegging it as "evil." Lorca and Tyler didn't leave behind an innocent but flawed civilian. They left behind a deceitful criminal who betrayed them and the Federation.

There's a difference.

A big one.

Were Adama and Apollo "evil war crime guys" because they left Baltar to die in the Pyramid in Part 2 of "Lost Planet of the Gods?" in BSGTOS? Were you up in arms about the evil, horrible, deplorable behavior on display then? No, Baltar was a dick who sold his people out. Simple.

 

[Rahul]

You need to rewatch Chain of Command because Picard didn't break. That was the entire point of the episode.

He DID break. That was the whole point of the episode. "I would have told them everything". He was just lucky enough to be set free before the Cardassian got the final admission. And it would have given the Cardassians nothing. Ultimately, the perfect parable for torture.

Seems you didn't watch the episode very observant.

No not EVERYONE would. If you really believe that, go back and watch ,if you can find them, all those videos of american captives being beheaded. Tell me how many were saying to their captors before hand "Don't kill me! I know things that you can find valuable." Many POWs throughout history endured torture without becoming a traitor to tgeir country.

Yeah. No. They didn't became traitors, because their information became worthless once they were captured.

But seeing you are that type of person that watches beheading-videos of American soldiers at least makes me understand why you wouldn't necessary have a problem with Lorca's action this episode.

Then the captain would have saved Mudd and probably shot Tyler because the penalty for treason is death.

Yeah. No. Spilling your beans under torture is NOT treason. I'm going to recommend watching this video again, so you get a little bit of a clearer understanding to seperate reality from your fictional idea of "gritty realism":

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Yes it would have. You can't trust him with a phaser. You can't trust him to not turn his back on you. You can't trust him in the event you're captured again...

Why? What did he do? He had a listening device in his bug? Like the dozen others that were in the walls? Oh, I smell treason worthy of capital punishment!

Who has already betrayed starfleet. How hard is that to grasp?

No.

You keep saying this, but none of us really know the answer to that.

Yes we do. There is real life precedents. Many.

 

[Rahul]

Isn't that what I essentially said myself?

The difference is that you're looking at the middle ground and pegging it as "evil." Lorca and Tyler didn't leave behind an innocent but flawed civilian. They left behind a deceitful criminal who betrayed them and the Federation.

There's a difference.

A big one.

Were Adama and Apollo "evil war crime guys" because they left Baltar to die in the Pyramid in Part 2 of "Lost Planet of the Gods?" in BSGTOS? Were you up in arms about the evil, horrible, deplorable behavior on display then?

Y'know, Adama and Co. being war criminals was kinda' the whole point of the series. What happens once civilisation breaks down in it's entirety. So yeah. Those were clear war crimes. Which the show made a point of. But they were also completely understandable, because that was what major parts of the show were about. What needs to happen, to make people go that far?

In all honesty, BSG was great in that regard, and handeled that theme with way more maturity than DIS seems to be able to pull off.

 

[Gonzo]

Better be prepared for further disheartening, then.

I agree I don't think Lorca is being setup for a heel turn at all, he is a war strategist who has had a lot of experience with the Klingons.

Mudds actions clearly disgusted him and he acted accordingly.

Consider France in WW2, those who actively aided the Germans and even betrayed their own people, there is a word for people like that Collaborators.

We all saw what the French did to them after the war and it wasn't pretty.

P.S I really wish people would stop playing the war crimes card in regards to Lorca leaving Mudd, that's not a war crime as Mudd didn't look or act like a hostage to me, also hostages don't assist the enemy or spy on their own, he looked like a Collaborator to me.

 

[Vger23]

Y'know, Adama and Co. being war criminals was kinda' the whole point of the series. What happens once civilisation breaks down in it's entirety. So yeah. Those were clear war crimes. Which the show made a point of. But they were also completely understandable, because that was what major parts of the show were about. What needs to happen, to make people go that far?

In all honesty, BSG was great in that regard, and handeled that theme with way more maturity than DIS seems to be able to pull off.

What are you talking about?? BSG never addressed those issues...not even once.

 

[Rahul]

I agree I don't think Lorca is being setup for a heel turn at all, he is a war strategist who has had a lot of experience with the Klingons.

Mudds actions clearly disgusted him and he acted accordingly.

Consider France in WW2, those who actively aided the Germans and even betrayed their own people, there is a word for people like that Collaborators.

We all saw what the French did to them after the war and it wasn't pretty.

P.S I really wish people would stop playing the war crimes card in regards to Lorca leaving Mudd, that's not a war crime as Mudd didn't look or act like a hostage to me, also hostages don't assist the enemy or spy on their own, he looked like a Collaborator to me.

Yep. That's something that happened in real life.

But it's alittle bit sad, that our new Starfleet Captain now has the moral standing of an angry mob.

But it's even sadder to realize people actually like that. And whish to be part of the mob themselves.

 

[Vger23]

I agree I don't think Lorca is being setup for a heel turn at all, he is a war strategist who has had a lot of experience with the Klingons.

Mudds actions clearly disgusted him and he acted accordingly.

Consider France in WW2, those who actively aided the Germans and even betrayed their own people, there is a word for people like that Collaborators.

We all saw what the French did to them after the war and it wasn't pretty.

P.S I really wish people would stop playing the war crimes card in regards to Lorca leaving Mudd, that's not a war crime as Mudd didn't look or act like a hostage to me, also hostages don't assist the enemy or spy on their own, he looked like a Collaborator to me.

You've got to understand that the "war crimes" stuff isn't really driven by the true moral and ethical concerns of the people typing them out.

They simply don't like the new series and are using these kinds of arguments to justify their dislike (which isn't really necessary...you could literally just stop watching and it would be much, much better for everyone).

I wonder how many people who watch Jack Bauer on "24" think he is a deplorable war criminal?

But...this is different...because Star Trek...and Gene....and reasons...

 

[Rahul]

What are you talking about?? BSG never addressed those issues...not even once.

"Not even once"? Did you missed the time when they were debating what to do with Cylon prisoners? It wasn't as heavily telegrafed as some TNG-preach stories. But this was kinda' the big subject they were debating during the entirety of the show's run.

 

[Noname Given]

You need to rewatch Chain of Command because Picard didn't break. That was the entire point of the episode.

Methinks you need to rewatch the scene where Picard walks out of the Interrogation because YES it was obvious, he had been broken (an d that's the only thing the Cardassian was waiting for - to get Picard to say what he wanted and visceral confirmation.) Had the Commanding Cardassian Officer arrived 30 seconds later - he would have heard Picard say, "Yes, there are five lights."

The writers allowed Picard to 'cop out' by having him hear: "I told you to have him ready to go. We're sending him back to his ship." But yea, Picard HAD been broken.

 

[Gonzo]

Isn't that what I essentially said myself?

The difference is that you're looking at the middle ground and pegging it as "evil." Lorca and Tyler didn't leave behind an innocent but flawed civilian. They left behind a deceitful criminal who betrayed them and the Federation.

There's a difference.

A big one.

Were Adama and Apollo "evil war crime guys" because they left Baltar to die in the Pyramid in Part 2 of "Lost Planet of the Gods?" in BSGTOS? Were you up in arms about the evil, horrible, deplorable behavior on display then? No, Baltar was a dick who sold his people out. Simple.

I think the problem here is that some are seeing things in purely black and white terms with nothing in between, life isn't really like that.

 

[Vger23]

Yep. That's something that happened in real life.

But it's alittle bit sad, that our new Starfleet Captain now has the moral standing of an angry mob.

But it's even sadder to realize people actually like that. And whish to be part of the mob themselves.

Dude, you're really got a problem comparing apples to apples.

Lorca's decision had nothing to do with being an "angry mob" mentality.

He was in a life-or-death situation in a war for survival. He has vital (absolutely VITAL) information that, if mined out of him by Klingon interrogators would be devastating to the Federation. Devastating. Could lead to the eventual END of his people and his way of life.

His choice was:
1. Bring a proven duplicitous traitor with you, and carry all the risk associated with that
2. Get the hell out of dodge and make sure the Klingons don't break you

He saw the big picture and made a choice. It wasn't an easy one. But it may have been the correct one in the long run.

For example- I totally DISAGREE with Picard's decision not to infect Hugh with the Borg virus. You're talking about the survival of your entire species. The alternative is billions and billions facing a fate worse than death. I think he made a mistake there.

 

[Gepard]

You can tell me their writing is incompetent when you can show me YOUR completed and filmed screenplay for a major television franchise and then explain to me why your screenplay is superior to theirs.

What an absurd counterargument.

I sure hope you waive the right to criticize anything you don't have the means to do better at yourself. Better not ever return a broken appliance because you sure can't build one better than a factory. And don't have an opinion about restaurant food unless you've cooked a better version of it than they have.

 

[Gonzo]

Yep. That's something that happened in real life.

But it's alittle bit sad, that our new Starfleet Captain now has the moral standing of an angry mob.

But it's even sadder to realize people actually like that. And whish to be part of the mob themselves.

Its not a question of liking it, its about having an open mind and understanding why he made the decision he did, for me Mudd gave him more than enough reason.

Lorca wasn't angry, he was disgusted.

 

[Vger23]

I think the problem here is that some are seeing things in purely black and white terms with nothing in between, life isn't really like that.

That is precisely all I have been trying to say.

And, in fairness...this is relatively new for Star Trek. In past incarnations...you could count on the characters to do the morally and ethically "right" thing...and the episode would end with Picard or Janeway giving Data or 7 of 9 some well-written speech about it all as they smile confidently at their own moral perfection and walk out the door into the corridor.

Unfortunately, that isn't real life.

 

[137th Gebirg]

But...this is different...because Star Trek...and Gene....and reasons...

I honestly love this, actually. I'm going to make this my new sig. Many thanks to "Ed Mercer" for "Because REASONS". It so wonderfully nut-shells the arguments of the pro-Disco/anti-Disco camps we've been seeing lately.

 

[Rahul]

You've got to understand that the "war crimes" stuff isn't really driven by the true moral and ethical concerns of the people typing them out.

They simply don't like the new series and are using these kinds of arguments to justify their dislike (which isn't really necessary...you could literally just stop watching and it would be much, much better for everyone).

I wonder how many people who watch Jack Bauer on "24" think he is a deplorable war criminal?

But...this is different...because Star Trek...and Gene....and reasons...

That's a pretty horrible moving of the goalpost.

"People only complain about the main characters being war criminals because they don't like the show".

No. Wrong. Completely. The show is mostly okay. But it has flaws. And THIS is one of the major ones.

And yeah. I watched Jack Bauer. Which was a way superiour show in this regard. Because, just in case you missed it, it made a point about how his behaviour was wrong. And how he was only doing this because it was necessary in these situations. Really digging into the "gray" area. What Lorca did was purely immoral, because it wasn't done for any greater good, but purely to spite someone. With death and torture. I would have been more sympathetic if the episode tried to show us the dilemma he was going through. But there was none. He just didn't like the dude. What Jack Bauer did was sometimes more crass. But it was justified by the ticking clock around him. But Lorca?That was way worse, because it was so unnecessary.

 

[Vger23]

That's a pretty horrible moving of the goalpost.

"People only complain about the main characters being war criminals because they don't like the show".

No. Wrong. Completely. The show is mostly okay. But it has flaws. And THIS is one of the major ones.

And yeah. I watched Jack Bauer. Which was a way superiour show in this regard. Because, just in case you missed it, it made a point about how his behaviour was wrong. And how he was only doing this because it was necessary in these situations. Really digging into the "gray" area. What Lorca did was purely immoral. I would have been sympathetic if the episode tried to show us the dilemma he was going through. But there was none. He just didn't like the dude. What Jack Bauer did was sometimes more crass. But it was justified by the ticking clock around them. But Lorca?That was way worse, because it was so unnecessary.

I'm sorry- but I happen to disagree with you. Entirely.

I think that's the end of that.

 

[Rahul]

I'm sorry- but I happen to disagree with you. Entirely.

I think that's the end of that.

Yeah, I noticed. I'm sorry. I won't accept "he totes deserves torture and death, because he was willing to sell out the trained military guys in his cell to save himself from said torture and death" as any kind of justification.

 

[Mr Awe]

Many thanks to "Ed Mercer" for "Because REASONS". It so wonderfully nut-shells the arguments of the pro-Disco/anti-Disco camps we've been seeing lately.

You're close, but you're missing the first essential part of the argument.. If you want to make the absolutely, positively, definitive, incontrovertible argument, it's got to be:

NOPE. Because REASONS!

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, I noticed. I'm sorry. I won't accept "he totes deserves torture and death, because he was willing to sell out the trained military guys in his cell to save himself from said torture and death" as any kind of justification.