Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x05 - "Choose Your Pain"

[SpocksOddSocks]

Against the theory is it's only been three weeks since the last episode, which is too soon for him to properly train to pass as human.

I think this is both a for and against, because he survived so long due to L'Rell "taking a linking to him", but she was stranded on the sarcophogus ship for most of that time (and he was taken at the battle of the Binary Stars).

But I definitely do agree it is a short period for the training he might need. Unless, as others have said, the memory of a real Ash Tyler has been implanted somehow.

 

[Nyotarules]

"To the audience Tyler is so obviously a spy that Lorca’s not just callous, he’s a fucking moron."

I disagree with the writer, TOS was not all about perfect characters who made the right choices all the time. Kirk was prepared to blow up a planet to stop a war and save his ship, none of his senior officers objected.
As for the commentators who think ten years tis too short for such a change in Starfleet's soul I give you exhibit A. 2008, 2012 USA voters elected President Obama, four years later they choose Mr Trump as President.
I rest my case.

 

[Mudd]

I disagree with the writer, TOS was not all about perfect characters who made the right choices all the time.

And, of course, no one has suggested that they were.

Excuse-making for the lack of basic decency and integrity among many of the characters on Discovery is clearly going to be quite the thing on the Internet.

 

[Nyotarules]

So you say. She's still right.

No she ain't, its just her opinion.

 

[Mudd]

No she ain't, its just her opinion.

A considered opinion that she does a far better job of articulating than any Discovery fans have managed in defense of the show's many failings.

What I didn't like was the Klingon woman. I had no idea it was the one from previous episodes until I watched trekyards review. It just seemed odd to me..

It's to be expected - you're looking at a collection of essentially immobile masks, with actors speaking gibberish through oversized dentures. Now she suddenly shows up speaking English with some odd accent.

 

[Nyotarules]

And, of course, no one has suggested that they were.

Excuse-making for the lack of basic decency and integrity among many of the characters on Discovery is clearly going to be quite the thing on the Internet.

What integrity did Kirk have in A taste of Armageddon/ A private little war or did Picard have with I Borg or Penpals or Admiral Satie in The Drumhead?

 

[Nyotarules]

Eh, not so much dead as no longer the ruling and politically-dominant force it was a few centuries earlier. Phlox says in "Cold Front(ENT)" that the Vatican and Buddhist places of worship are still in operation during the 22nd century and we saw a multifaith chapel aboard Kirk's Enterprise in "Balance of Terror(TOS)" so religions and faith are still a force in human society, just no longer the overriding and world-dominant influences they are in our time.

They don't need to be. They won the cultural and political wars. The whole galaxy speaks English and have American accents. And Starfleet is dominated by North Americans anglos. Well done WASPs!

 

[SPCTRE]

I'm thinking the fact that Statmets did his evil look in a mirror might be a clue as to what is going on with him, especially since they already revealed a certain alternate universe will be featured this season.

 

[BillJ]

What integrity did Kirk have in A taste of Armageddon/ A private little war or did Picard have with I Borg or Penpals or Admiral Satie in The Drumhead?

I don't think people get what I'm actually talking about. Yes, characters in the past had to make hard decisions, I'm not arguing otherwise. But, we also got to know the characters in a way that was more than just a war with people doing bad things. Even the bad guys were given redeeming characteristics.

We got to see the characters in good times and bad. We got to see them be heroes and villains. Here, most everyone is simply written like a villain/person of poor morals.

That was Star Trek up until Discovery.

 

[Mudd]

...just a war with people doing bad things.

And there is Star Trek Discovery summarized in all its rich thematic depth.

 

[137th Gebirg]

That had to be a Star Trek First.

I believe it is, yes.

Given that i09 keeps making up things about the show while ignoring things that happen in the episodes in order to justify their hate, I don't see why I should take it seriously.

Yeah, i09 jumped the shark years ago.

 

[Rahul]

What integrity did Kirk have in A taste of Armageddon/ A private little war or did Picard have with I Borg or Penpals or Admiral Satie in The Drumhead?

Kirk had a shit-ton of integrity in both those instances. In bot cases, he tried to right a horrible wrong. In "Armageddon" he was to save his own crew, and the planet(s) with them. Hell, he was using cold-war tactics (mutually assured destruction), but in order so save people. And in "private war" his goal was to "correct" the klingon incursion, to bring the people back to their original ways, and away from the opression of the klingon-backed warmongers.

But the most important difference is: Both of these instances were HEAVLY debated.
There was much discussion going on. Testing out limits. And different opinions being voiced about the way how to proceed and if it was justified. You might disagree with the conclusions Kirk came to (as I disagree with many of Sisko's conclusions), but the reason you remember it so well was because of how many thoughts went into it.

Compare that do Lorca leaving Mudd behind just 'cause. There was no reason, no debate, no moral conflict, no anything. Lorca was just being a dick. Leaving another being back for certain torture and death. Not because it would improve ehir own chances, or because he could only save two people. No. Just because he might have cooperated with the klingons (to, again, evade torture and death). That's just immoral, however you want to spin it.

 

[Mr Awe]

So you say. She's still right.

There's no way of knowing if she's correct at this point in time.

Lorca may well know that Tyler is a spy and is using him to plant misinformation. To me, Lorca seemed suspicious about Tyler's story from the start. Or, maybe Tyler isn't actually a spy. Or, maybe Lorca is a moron. We just don't know yet. So, the author isn't right about that at this point.

And a big part of the author's case is that the actor who plays Tyler has the birth name of the actor who plays Voq. I can't confirm that, but even if it is true, that information isn't available to Lorca.

In general, this is another case where we, the audience, have more information than the characters. We've seen Voq and L'ress (sp?), we know their background etc and that helps us put the pieces together. Even without that extra information, Lorca was suspicious.

For some of this stuff, we're just going to have to wait and see how it plays out.

I didn't see you moaning about how Ed Mercer (the Orville character) was a moron for not seeing through the future chick. That was truly obvious and moronic on his part. You've got a double-standard here.

 

[BillJ]

I didn't see you moaning about how Ed Mercer (the Orville character) was a moron for not seeing through the future chick.

I wouldn't be able to see through Charlize Theron either.

 

[Longinus]

Compare that do Lorca leaving Mudd behind just 'cause. There was no reason, no debate, no moral conflict, no anything. Lorca was just being a dick. Leaving another being back for certain torture and death. Not because it would improve ehir own chances, or because he could only save two people. No. Just because he might have cooperated with the klingons (to, again, evade torture and death). That's just immoral, however you want to spin it.

But apparently this is what people want. Most people seem to love Lorca, and they had a poll on leaving Mudd behind on After Trek. Something like 75% of people voted that it was a right call and then the host joked about it. People want to see tough guy arseholes.

No I don't get it and I don't want that sort of Star Trek, but the truth is people like us are in the minority.

 

[Mr Awe]

I wouldn't be able to see through Charlize Theron either.

Ha! Yes, there is that!

 

[ichab]

Kirk had a shit-ton of integrity in both those instances. In bot cases, he tried to right a horrible wrong. In "Armageddon" he was to save his own crew, and the planet(s) with them. Hell, he was using cold-war tactics (mutually assured destruction), but in order so save people. And in "private war" his goal was to "correct" the klingon incursion, to bring the people back to their original ways, and away from the opression of the klingon-backed warmongers.

But the most important difference is: Both of these instances were HEAVLY debated.
There was much discussion going on. Testing out limits. And different opinions being voiced about the way how to proceed and if it was justified. You might disagree with the conclusions Kirk came to (as I disagree with many of Sisko's conclusions), but the reason you remember it so well was because of how many thoughts went into it.

Compare that do Lorca leaving Mudd behind just 'cause. There was no reason, no debate, no moral conflict, no anything. Lorca was just being a dick. Leaving another being back for certain torture and death. Not because it would improve ehir own chances, or because he could only save two people. No. Just because he might have cooperated with the klingons (to, again, evade torture and death). That's just immoral, however you want to spin it.

There's no "might" to it. Mudd WAS cooperating with the Klingons and would have betrayed both just to save his own neck. You don't put yourself and your crew in jeopardy just to appease a higher sense of morality.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Untrue.

Mudd is not loyal to anyone.

Just because he let some Klingons not kill and torture him, it doesn't mean that he owes them anything.

Besides, that "Choose your pain" thing can't have been a real technique, since the main plus for the scheme is that the Klingon Spy got out of the cell for food and a shag for a few hours out of every day, so the jailers are not gaining anything by creating bad will between prisoners since the aggrieved party is not even a prisoner.

Furthermore was it is Ash's contention that L'Rell was raping him, or that he allowed her to have sex with him, because it's better than being beaten half to death... So why the frack was Mudd supposed to feel guilty about being Ash's wingman?

Mudd would actually have been beaten and tortured.

If it came to a choice between a large woman pulling my teeth out with pliers, or that same woman administering orgasms to my bunk mate, it's not much of a decision, at all, to me, even if he hates orgasms.

 

[cooleddie74]

They don't need to be. They won the cultural and political wars. The whole galaxy speaks English and have American accents. And Starfleet is dominated by North Americans anglos. Well done WASPs!

Whitey: He's Got It Good In Any Century.™

 

[Longinus]

There's no "might" to it. Mudd WAS cooperating with the Klingons and would have betrayed both just to save his own neck.

I would cooperate with the Klingons too if the alternative was to be tortured by them. For fuck's sake, he is a civilian and a Federation citizen, It was Lorca's duty as a Starfleet officer to save him!