People have already argued that point with him several times, he doesn't budge.
Starship Concept Art - Battle of Binary Stars Fleet
- Thread starter PixelMagic
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People have already argued that point with him several times, he doesn't budge.
Can you name a time every single inch of ship was changed. There is simply nothing left. They put in a new saucer, 2nd hull, nacells, and pylons. Its longer, taller, got more decks, has wider halls and so on. Nothing is the same.
We sometimes do an odd experimental rebuild. There is 3 subs of a class the US had they rebuilt and made longer , but they are used for one type of job. and even those did not get anywhere near this level of rebuild. The ships you are talking about left the hull intact and gutted and rebuilt the upper decks. This is not what happened here.
We know in RL they threw out the old design and simply made a new one that looked very little like the old one. In setting they hand waved it as a refit, which only works if it was Refit from the Phase II design it is based off of.
We all know why they changed ships and know its not a refit, which even starfleet does not do that way.
I like his art.
I am not sure about the designs specifically as Star Trek ships though.
I would absolutely not want to see the 1701 re-imagined to that degree.
Say.... when a new Star Wars ship is designed.... the new artist seeks to make the ship fit with Ralph MacQuarrie's existing design style. The above picture is just some background utility shuttle from Knights of the Old Republic II, but captures the essence of Star Wars perfectly.
As someone said here, John Eaves does not take things like era into account - he puts his own stamp on all his work. He seems to use his own sculpted style no matter the era; not trying to go for, say, a more deliberate usage of the utilitarian designs for one era, and a more organic one for another era. Here are three ships designed in the 1970s and 1980s that come from the same late 23rd century era - The Motion Picture era:
Say that he was asked to specifically design a new ship for The Motion Picture era, of which, we have only ever seen things like the Reliant and Enterprise - he would, I wager, basically come up with exactly what he did on the first page of this thread. That is a problem.
I like the USS Europa as a ship.
But as a Star Trek ship from the 23rd century? Well, it's really busy, with racing cutouts - elements of organic curves, and sculpted cowlings that look like they could be something out of Halo's forerunners - and all three other examples of ships from this era - JJ Abrams Kelvin Timeline, The Original Series, and The Motion Picture era - they do not have this - they are very utilitarian industrial looking designs. If the problem is not with the artist, who cannot help but do what they always do, then perhaps the producers should consider what message they want to send through designs. The USS Kelvin, for me, was a perfect connecting design, for the era - looking detailed enough for modern audiences, yet feeling perfectly like a 23rd century design.
As soon as the 2009 film opened, and the Kelvin came onto the screen, accompanied by familiar Starfleet sensor beeps and whistles, the immediate feeling the audience had, was of grounding in the 23rd century, because it's hull was like a Motion Picture era vessel, and every subtle thing suggested the scenes from that film when Kirk sees shuttles landing Starfleet command, or inspects the Enterprise - how TOS might have been, had the budget permitted. We can assume the original 1701 had RCS thrusters firing when it turned, and so on, but never saw it due to the limitations of the 60s.
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That's my problem with Eaves' Federation designs, they're way too angular, samey and unmemorable, with a few saucer cut-outs thrown in (cause why not). Give me the clean lines and classic beauty of the Excelsior, Constellation, Miranda, Oberth, Nebula etc over anything he's done.
The Klingon ships are pretty bad too. Not a single memorable shape to them, and way too messy in terms of detailing.
I like his art.
But as a Star Trek ship from the 23rd century? Well, it's really busy, with racing cutouts - elements of organic curves, and sculpted cowlings that look like they could be something out of Halo - and all three other examples of ships from this era - JJ Abrams Kelvin Timeline, The Original Series, and The Motion Picture era - they are not. If the problem is not with the artist, who cannot help but do what they always do, then perhaps the producers should consider what message they want to send through designs. The USS Kelvin, for me, was a perfect connecting design, for the era - looking detailed enough for modern audiences, yet feeling perfectly like a 23rd century design.
Here is the issue. the Kelvin looks at best a decade newer than the NX, two tops. So you are looking at 2170 maybe. ENT and TMP killed the TOS look. Yeah the Kelvin is cool, but she is clearly a contemporary of designed that cane soon after the NX.
The ships we see here are after the NX, but not right after. ENT totally reworked the timeline, the TOS ship can not exist after ENT. Those ships do in fact fit 100 years after the NX, we know the Walker class is an old ship, likely late 22nd cent and newer than the Kelvin class , but much older than the connie.
TOS styling is the lame duck here, TMP removed it and ignored it and ENT simply closed that door for good.
i can't think of a ship more stupid than the oberth-class - there are three ways to get into the secondary hull
- through a nascelle
- by shuttle
- beaming
I kinda like the idea that on the Grissom - basically a science scout ship - the entire secondary hull is one big unmanned sensor pod.i can't think of a ship more stupid than the oberth-class - there are three ways to get into the secondary hull
- through a nascelle
- by shuttle
- beaming
Its not. We have seen deckplans on screen. 13 decks total, that whole secondary hull is deck space
I don't know if this is the same one he is referring to, but the only MSD-like drawing I saw was the turbolift indicator map as Saru and Burnham were riding up to the bridge during the battle simulation.
Well maybe not in those fan-made and entirely uncanon deck plans.not gonna happen
They were on-screen (TNG: Hero Worship), but it's worth noting that they were contradicted by the shots of the SS Vico where the saucer had four decks rather than two.
I'm not suggesting my idea is official in any way, but it does kinda fit the general shapes, mission profile and lack of a connecting dorsal.
Well maybe not in those fan-made and entirely uncanon deck plans.
They were on-screen (TNG: Hero Worship), but it's worth noting that they were contradicted by the shots of the SS Vico where the saucer had four decks rather than two.
I'm not suggesting my idea is official in any way, but it does kinda fit the general shapes, mission profile and lack of a connecting dorsal.
i knew someone would say that - unfortunately it's next to impssible to read anything on thisone
Both the Europa and the four nacelled ship are amazing. I can't read the name on the four nacelled on though, does anyone know which ship that is?
Also, is it me, or does it look like the bridge is actually completely in front of the saucer. Not on top, but in between those edges in the front?
Also, is it me, or does it look like the bridge is actually completely in front of the saucer. Not on top, but in between those edges in the front?
i knew someone would say that - unfortunately it's next to impssible to read anything on thisone
This one has deckplans in it's nacelle struts. I think we can clearly rule that out as any kind of "proof" that the secondary hull must have decks.
My personal theory was: The lift was on the outside of the nacelle struts (between the two). Basically so that you would see it go down from the outside, if someone would use it. Since this is a pure science vessel, it can have stuff exposed to the outside, it's not going to go into battle or any dangerous situations anyway. In my mind, the secondary hull was still de-pressurized, filled with sensor pods and sience stuff (hence no windows), and getting in there was only for repairs (which should theoretically happen in drydock, or only in emergencies), or to set up new science stuff. But apart from that was also detachable in drydock, and the "starship" was basically only the upper saucer, piggy-backing various science devices pods the galaxxy to do stuff there.
Here's the HD, perspective-corrected version:i knew someone would say that - unfortunately it's next to impssible to read anything on thisone
And the wreck itself, where the VFX/model people and the art department didn't compare notes:
USS Yeager. And yes.
I think the episode would have massively profited from showing these starships more clearly on screen. Even with the Europa, which had a few beauty shows, I wasn't able to make out the basic shape during the episode. And all the other starships were only there to explode in the background anyway. Really a shame. I think we never had a Star Trek battle with a less defined fleet. Even the Wolf-359 one -which we didn't even saw on screen- was better presented in terms of "how many starships are there?", "how many people?", and "how big a pie of the entirety of Starfleet during it's era is that?". I still can't wrap my heads around the specifics of the battle at the binary stars. How much of a loss was it? Was it actually a "win"? How did the Federation do compared to the klingons?
All of which fell on the writers though, not on the designers. But I think it's clear this fleet was mostly "smash together some nacelles and saucers", but "don't make it look more complex than the Enterprise or Discovery". Which IMO led to ships with some great details, but a lack of interesting shapes (the one X-wing starship notwithstanding).
I can't see anything that would make the NX-class and Kelvin-type contemporaries.
2151:
2233:
For one thing, the Kelvin is allegedly massive compared to the NX class, hard to see as a design that comes one generation later - it has a crew of 800 compared to the NX class's 83. For another, it's hull is totally different in terms of shape, color, etc. It's era is very different 2233: is 80 years after the launch of the NX-01.
I think it's a really nice evocation of the designs of the 23rd century, and was perfect for what it was intended to do - make people feel they were in Kirk's era again - whilst looking fantastic in terms of on-screen detail for a modern audience.
The USS Europa does not accomplish that same callback. No reason it couldn't have though.
I like Eaves designs purely as art, but they look a bit like a Forerunner relic from Halo, or Prothean relic from Mass Effect, with the sculpture-like lines:
2151:
2233:
For one thing, the Kelvin is allegedly massive compared to the NX class, hard to see as a design that comes one generation later - it has a crew of 800 compared to the NX class's 83. For another, it's hull is totally different in terms of shape, color, etc. It's era is very different 2233: is 80 years after the launch of the NX-01.
I think it's a really nice evocation of the designs of the 23rd century, and was perfect for what it was intended to do - make people feel they were in Kirk's era again - whilst looking fantastic in terms of on-screen detail for a modern audience.
The USS Europa does not accomplish that same callback. No reason it couldn't have though.
I like Eaves designs purely as art, but they look a bit like a Forerunner relic from Halo, or Prothean relic from Mass Effect, with the sculpture-like lines:
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