Decker and Ilia Post-TMP

[Pauln6]

It would be a simple matter for V'Ger to 're-make' those that it had absorbed from their data patterns once it had an understanding of 'carbon units', albeit they would be copies with all the memories of the originals. There are all sorts of intriguing possibilities, a bit like the neutrino clones in Solaris: are they real people, do they have any residual programming, are they still linked to V'Ger, have they been 'improved' by the V'Ger-hybrid, etc

 

[Kemaiku]

In "Ex Machina", the novel implies that by turning it's plasma matrix on itself, V'ger merged all three of their minds into a sort of triple faceted singular conciousness. So Decker and Ilia are now a fundemental part of the Voyager's new form, but parts of them still exist in a way.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It would be a simple matter for V'Ger to 're-make' those that it had absorbed from their data patterns once it had an understanding of 'carbon units', albeit they would be copies with all the memories of the originals. There are all sorts of intriguing possibilities, a bit like the neutrino clones in Solaris: are they real people, do they have any residual programming, are they still linked to V'Ger, have they been 'improved' by the V'Ger-hybrid, etc

Since carbon units are native to this universe and V'ger could not understand their nature, it cannot be the case that V'ger learned all that was learnable in this universe. V'ger only thought it had learned everything it could. So, it would make sense if the reason that V'ger did not comprehend carbon units was because its scans were incomplete and that it was unaware of their incompleteness. Without having read completely the spark of life, the V'ger-Decker hybrid would not be able to bring the original Ilia back to life, based just on what was in its memory and what it learned from Decker.

 

[Pauln6]

Since carbon units are native to this universe and V'ger could not understand their nature, it cannot be the case that V'ger learned all that was learnable in this universe. V'ger only thought it had learned everything it could. So, it would make sense if the reason that V'ger did not comprehend carbon units was because its scans were incomplete and that it was unaware of their incompleteness. Without having read completely the spark of life, the V'ger-Decker hybrid would not be able to bring the original Ilia back to life, based just on what was in its memory and what it learned from Decker.

Perhaps, but the transporter manages it on a daily basis without any understanding at all ;-P (unless Rand is at the controls, obviously). All it takes is a pattern and enough energy.

But that's why I cited Solaris as an inspiration. Would Ilia really be Ilia; a reflection of Decker's memories of Ilia; a reclaimed, fractured personality, like Seven of Nine; or just an extension of V'Ger, a carbon-based, walking, talking sensor, essentially a facsimile of a person to relay back ongoing experiences of our dimension? It certainly has fair bit of creepy potential for exploration.

For that matter, the Ilia probe in place of Data covers off a lot of familiar but nonetheless interesting ground.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Perhaps, but the transporter manages it on a daily basis without any understanding at all ;-P (unless Rand is at the controls, obviously). All it takes is a pattern and enough energy.

But a (Federation) transporter can't store what it transports indefinitely. The pattern degrades. Scotty's jury-rigging was only 50% effective. V'ger's memory didn't (seem to) degrade that way.

By the way, this is why I think the transporter accident is essential to the story. Intentionally or not, it foreshadows what happens to Ilia.

I understood your reference to Solaris, by the way. That's an apt comparison.

 

[MarsWeeps]

But a (Federation) transporter can't store what it transports indefinitely. The pattern degrades. Scotty's jury-rigging was only 50% effective.

KEY words: Jury rigging
I'm sure it would be more effective if the proper equipment was available and didn't have to be made out of stone knives and bearskins. Besides, it was 100% effective for Scotty.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

KEY words: Jury rigging
I'm sure it would be more effective if the proper equipment was available and didn't have to be made out of stone knives and bearskins. Besides, it was 100% effective for Scotty.

It was jury-rigged, because it was beyond Federation technology. There's no Federation technology, with or without jury-rigging, that can reliably do this. Patterns degrade in transporter buffers; that's what they do.

 

[MarsWeeps]

It was jury-rigged, because it was beyond Federation technology. There's no Federation technology, with or without jury-rigging, that can reliably do this. Patterns degrade in transporter buffers; that's what they do.

The fix is easy. Have a writer make it possible!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The fix is easy. Have a writer make it possible!

Yes, writers have Q-like powers, it is true!

 

[Markonian]

The true horror is that V'ger assimilated countless worlds, likely cutting a swath of destruction through the galaxy on its way to Earth. Yet there are no consequences.

 

[Pauln6]

It was jury-rigged, because it was beyond Federation technology. There's no Federation technology, with or without jury-rigging, that can reliably do this. Patterns degrade in transporter buffers; that's what they do.

Federation technology from 10 years before TOS can potentially transport someone from Earth to Q'onos with only a portable transporter! There are always... possibilities. (And yes, I do think this is an abomination.)

I like to think that it's not so much the pattern in the buffer that degrades (it's just information that cannot be created or destroyed after all) but rather the quantum energy linkages tied to the real person that has been phased into a dimension that borders sub-space where space and time have no meaning. This means that limits on traditional transporters are caused by an inability to maintain a confinement beam (containing the linkages) over long distances. Too many energy linkages leak away over increased distances in our dimension and you can't retrieve enough of the person to survive.

Lose linkages and not all of the person phases back. You can 'boost your matter gain' (per TMP) which effectively uses the scan taken when they first transported to import replicated matter and fill in the blanks but too much replicated matter and the person turns up dead.

In rare transporter mishaps, somebody with 50% replicated matter survives and a transporter duplicate is born! It's also possible for transporter accidents to create epigenetic alterations that can lead to personality disorders (per the Enemy Within and transporter psychosis).

It could also mean that the same crewmen should not use transporters too often or there might be health consequences for having too much replicated matter among your cells at any one time.

So essentially as long as you can maintain or re-establish those linkages, a person in the transporter dimension can live indefinitely as long as enough of them remains there. There is just no known technology that can bring them back.

Since Ilia was not transported but without question transformed into data, if she were to return, she would be a clone of the original.

And I am unanimous in that.

 

[Christopher]

The true horror is that V'ger assimilated countless worlds, likely cutting a swath of destruction through the galaxy on its way to Earth. Yet there are no consequences.

I don't know about that. V'Ger's image banks contain what Spock describes as "images of planets, moons, stars, whole galaxies all stored in here, recorded." It's very unlikely that V'Ger could've digitized entire galaxies, so I tend to think the images of astronomical-scale objects are merely visual recordings of things too distant or too large to absorb directly.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't know about that. V'Ger's image banks contain what Spock describes as "images of planets, moons, stars, whole galaxies all stored in here, recorded." It's very unlikely that V'Ger could've digitized entire galaxies, so I tend to think the images of astronomical-scale objects are merely visual recordings of things too distant or too large to absorb directly.

Eh. I thought the suggestion was unambiguously that V'ger had digitized whole galaxies, plausibility be damned darned.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Note that "In Thy Image" intended that the original Ilia would be restored at the end of the first telemovie, and the "light bee" inside the V'ger Probe (in both of its forms) was to be found, burnt out. Decker was intended to return in the beginning of whichever episode was chosen to be the second adventure. And, at one point in the panicked planning of the non-existent last third of the final draft shooting script, the three Klingon ships were going to materialize in Earth orbit after Decker's transcendence.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I admit, a cynical part of me used V'Ger as the origin of the Borg in my tabletop RPG.

Obviously that isn't EU canon.

It utterly inverts the "good" of the ending but gives an origin which makes sense. By merging humans with super-intellect, it spreads itself to other humanoid species to learn from them and upgrade them.

 

[Christopher]

It utterly inverts the "good" of the ending but gives an origin which makes sense. By merging humans with super-intellect, it spreads itself to other humanoid species to learn from them and upgrade them.

Except that doesn't work, because the Borg have been around for hundreds or thousands of years. There are contradictory references onscreen to just how old they are, but we know the Vaadwaur had dealings with them in the 15th century CE.

Besides, the Borg's technology is enormously less advanced than V'Ger's. V'Ger was so advanced that our universe was no longer big enough to contain it. Its technology was so refined that it was almost organic, and it could "assimilate" things simply by converting them into energy and storing them as data. Borg tech is crude and clunky in comparison.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Except that doesn't work, because the Borg have been around for hundreds or thousands of years. There are contradictory references onscreen to just how old they are, but we know the Vaadwaur had dealings with them in the 15th century CE.

Time travel man! Time travel!

Besides, the Borg's technology is enormously less advanced than V'Ger's. V'Ger was so advanced that our universe was no longer big enough to contain it. Its technology was so refined that it was almost organic, and it could "assimilate" things simply by converting them into energy and storing them as data. Borg tech is crude and clunky in comparison.

From the emotional standpoint, I actually have an issue with it also because it means for all the good Kirk did, he actually did far far more evil--albeit by accident and the best of intentions.

 

[Christopher]

From the emotional standpoint, I actually have an issue with it also because it means for all the good Kirk did, he actually did far far more evil--albeit by accident and the best of intentions.

Well, the thing is, for all Kirk's insistence in TMP about how he had to be the one to command the Enterprise, when you get right down to it, he didn't actually accomplish much. Spock and Decker did all the work figuring out what V'Ger's deal was, and Decker was the one who made the choice to merge with V'Ger. Although I guess it was Kirk's bluff to the Ilia probe that got them taken to Voyager 6 so that they could piece the rest together. Still, it can hardly be said to be his responsibility exclusively.

 

[DonIago]

In that regard, could it be argued that TMP is the film where Kirk has the least agency?

 

[Charles Phipps]

In that regard, could it be argued that TMP is the film where Kirk has the least agency?

TMP was embarrassing for the Captain. I think if they have wrongful death suits in the future, the families of those two transporter victims have a case.

Not to mention he almost crashed the ship because he left the parking brake on.