Was Burnham right?

[Tenacity]

If Burnham had been successful in convincing Captain Georgiou. to have the Shenzhou fire on the first Klingon ship, or in her attempt to fire without the Captain permission (the Vulcan doctrine), would the encounter with the Klingon not resulted in war, in the destruction of the Starfleet fleet?

 

[Blamo]

I don't think it would have made any difference.

This wasn't a chance meeting in neutral space, like with the Klingons and the Vulcans (atleast that's what I gather from what was said), this was a trap set in Federation territory to lure a starfleet vessel. T'Kuvma wanted war.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

There’s no way firing first or not on the Klingons at that point would have made any real difference in starting the war or not. The ‘trap’ was already set so to speak.

 

[Timo]

Besides, Georgiou had already had her weapons locked to the Klingons, when they first revealed themselves. That may have kept her alive a little longer, but it didn't have any further effect.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[guyute03]

If Burnham had been successful in convincing Captain Georgiou. to have the Shenzhou fire on the first Klingon ship, or in her attempt to fire without the Captain permission (the Vulcan doctrine), would the encounter with the Klingon not resulted in war, in the destruction of the Starfleet fleet?

Yeah I've thought about this as well. I see the war happening either way. T'Kuvma was hell bent on war regardless of what was happening on the Shenzou between the Captain and Burnham. She kinda did that, the mutiny, and screwed her career, for nothing. At least that's how I've read all this. Maybe I'm not seeing it correctly, I don't know yet. I'm sure things will clear up as the season unfolds.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

No, the Klingons were intent on aggressing.

 

[Michael]

I don't think it would have made a difference on the outcome (i.e. war with the Klingons), but had she managed to fire first I at least could understand why Starfleet thinks she started the war. The way it was presented doesn't really make it clear why they would think that.

 

[Tenacity]

And if T'Kuvma had been killed prior to the arrival of the other Klingon ships?

Klingon ships had been fired on by Vulcans in the past with no war.

It was T'Kuvma who fired the first shot, after giving his argument to the leaders of the Klingon houses.

Would the house leaders have followed the albino torchbear?

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

It would have made no difference whatsoever.

T'Kuvma was an extremist who wanted war, Starfleet couldn't have won peace, the outcome was a foregone conclusion, and the real story is where Starfleet goes from here.

I don't think it would have made a difference on the outcome (i.e. war with the Klingons), but had she managed to fire first I at least could understand why Starfleet thinks she started the war. They way it was presented doesn't really make it clear why they would think that.

They don't think that I don't think - they have just charged her with a couple of very serious crimes that still carry the death penalty in some militaries:

- Assaulting a superior officer.

- Mutiny.

Her only blame could be from killing T'Kuvma instead of capturing him, but there were no witnesses, and I doubt it would have made much difference. Take the opinion of civilian prisoners with a grain of salt - just being there and accidentally killing the Klingon is enough for someone not privy to the full picture to say Starfleet started it.

 

[Michael]

It would have made no difference whatsoever.

T'Kuvma was an extremist who wanted war, Starfleet couldn't have won, the outcome was a foregone conclusion, and the real story is where Starfleet goes from here.



They don't think that I don't think - they have just charged her with a couple of very serious crimes that still carry the death penalty in some militaries:

- Assaulting a superior officer.

- Mutiny.

Her only blame could be from killing T'Kuvma instead of capturing him, but there were no witnesses, and I doubt it would have made much difference. Take the opinion of civilian prisoners with a grain of salt - just being there and accidentally killing the Klingon is enough for someone not privy to the full picture to say Starfleet started it.

While you are correct that in the court-martial “starting a war” isn't mentioned as one of her crimes, I just wanted to point out that Lorca at the very least seems to think she started the war. (Or he's just playing into what she believes she has done.)

 

[INACTIVEUSS Einstein]

While you are correct that in the court-martial “starting a war” isn't mentioned as one of her crimes, I just wanted to point out that Lorca at the very least seems to think she started the war. (Or he's just playing into what she believes she has done.)

Again, I think it's contextual - he didn't mean she supplied the "cassus belli" literally - he just means she accidentally killed the torchbearer.

The sole moral culpability rests on T'Kuvma.

 

[Blooded]

Context is for Kings...

 

[starburst]

The irony for Burnham's career is if she and Georgiou had spent another couple of minutes talking they would have been called to the Bridge with the Klingons jumping in... A couple of minutes further and Starfleet would have arrived and the war started anyway, but with Burnham on the Bridge she could have easily been injured or killed during the battle.

 

[Jadeb]

Klingon ships had been fired on by Vulcans in the past with no war.

I'm not sure I find that plausible. What are we supposed to think happened? That the Vulcans killed on sight with no retribution from the Klingons? Or that every encounter turned into a fierce battle to be won or lost? How is that not war?

I find it hard to imagine the Klingons would take unprovoked attacks lying down.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm not sure I find that plausible. What are we supposed to think happened? That the Vulcans killed on sight with no retribution from the Klingons? Or that every encounter turned into a fierce battle to be won or lost? How is that not war?

I find it hard to imagine the Klingons would take unprovoked attacks lying down.

I think the Klingon idea is the weak deserve to be punished for being...weak.

The Vulcans proved themselves strong.

So worthy of talking with.

Mind you, this is the Evil Jackass Vulcan High Command of Enterprise which Sarek isn't mentioning.

 

[Mirror Mirror]

If it had not been a set up, it might have worked. But it was always gonna end in war, that was the whole point. They didn't put wholes in a com relay for nothing.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I don't think it ever would have worked but Burnham was looking for a Hail Mary pass and she unfortunately isn't Captain Kirk. If the Klingons were testing the waters, they probably would have still attacked the ship because they live for this kind of thing. Sarek's advice was also something she twisted and contorted to fit her pre-existing prejudices.

Sarek's advice wasn't, "Punch the Klingon captain and they will respect you."

Sarek's advice was, "We blasted them enough to respect us."

It was a policy of sustained low level warfare until they respected Vulcan borders and shipping. Her idea was how to AVOID a war.

 

[Xerxes82]

No, she wasn't. Georgiou was. After Burnham pitchers her on the 'Vulcan Hello', Georgiou immediately and correctly diagnoses the situation. "If they're looking for a fight, balling up our fists won't stop them."

Sarek's advice was logical when dealing with a NORMAL Klingon engagement. T'Kumva isn't an ordinary Klingon, he's a fanatic. Burnham played right into his hands.

 

[Jaimito]

Michael already murdered one Klingon on that ancient ship. So in a sense, Starfleet did fire first.

 

[Kor]

It seems that Starfleet protocol wouldn't allow firing directly at the Klingon ship first. Apparently, the Vulcans, in their paternalistic wisdom, never bothered to suggest this to the humans.

Since the Klingons were in Federation territory, the Shenzhou could have requested that they leave. When the Klingons didn't do so, then the request could be repeated as an ultimatum that they would be fired upon if they didn't comply. And when they still didn't leave, warning shots could be fired, without actually targeting the ship. If this went on, then at some point it would escalate into firing directly on the ship. But that would not be the very first move.

Kor