If you do a war then doesn't Pike and the Enterprise have to show up?

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The Federation and the Cardassian Union signed the truce that ended hostilities in 2367.
Not a single officer on the Enterprise-D took part in the Federation-Dominion Wars.
Not only didn’t the Enterprise-E took part in the Dominion War, but not a single Sovereign-class starship took part either.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The Federation and the Cardassian Union signed the truce that ended hostilities in 2367.
Not a single officer on the Enterprise-D took part in the Federation-Dominion Wars.
Not only didn’t the Enterprise-E took part in the Dominion War, but not a single Sovereign-class starship took part either.

Based on comics and novels I've seen summaries of, the Enterprise-E was busy with the Gorn and the X-Men during the Dominion War.

 

[Tuskin38]

LORCA: Christopher Pike. What a loser. You know he actually keeps his bridge lights on?

*laugher echoes through the literal grimdarkness of the USS Discovery*

I know you were making a joke, but the preview images for Episode 3 show the Discovery bridge bright lighting.

 

[Timo]

The Federation and the Cardassian Union signed the truce that ended hostilities in 2367.

There's no proof that the E-D could even theoretically have taken part in any actual fighting, though. All that could have been over before 2363.

Whether "fighting" is too big a word for whupping Cardie ass is another matter: the adversaries did their worst in "The Wounded", and it amounted to exactly nothing.

Not a single officer on the Enterprise-D took part in the Federation-Dominion Wars.
Not only didn’t the Enterprise-E took part in the Dominion War, but not a single Sovereign-class starship took part either.

You mean you failed to see any of that. This is fundamentally different from it not fictionally happening.

Nowhere in Trek is it said that the former E-D crew did not take part in the Dominion War. The default assumption would be that they did, but they never discuss it one way or another, not even Worf who assuredly was there. The presence or absence of ships is never discussed, either. For all we know, the E-E single-handedly won the war using some classic nonviolent Trek trick behind the scenes, and then let the mighty battlefleets think the war was won by their firepower...

...Although probably not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spider]

Well, as we all know, if it isn't canon yet, it will be as soon as a TV or movie producer gets a hold of it. Frankly, other than the aspect it's fun to keep track of these things, I'm not sure why we even bother.

 

[Jayson1]

Well, as we all know, if it isn't canon yet, it will be as soon as a TV or movie producer gets a hold of it. Frankly, other than the aspect it's fun to keep track of these things, I'm not sure why we even bother.

This is exactly why canon stuff is so important to fans. It's fun to keep track of it and help make the universe feel like a real place.

Jason

 

[Philip Guyott]

I would not say that the Enterprise has to show up. It is a ship of exploration, presumably on its second five year mission, so at any given time it's properly a long way from Federation space.

However, if I was one of the shows writers I would have had the Enterprise be one of the ships mentioned as having arrived with the fleet at the binary stars. But would not show it on screen or show it from such a distance that you can't properly make it out. Then before the battle was over, have the communications officer mention the Enterprise had to warp out due to server battle damage or something like that. Why? Just to screw with the fans!

This is exactly why canon stuff is so important to fans. It's fun to keep track of it and help make the universe feel like a real place.

Furthermore, if you are a fan of a series, whatever the genre, it is only natural that you wan't it to all tie in together and to make sense. Star Trek fans are not unique in wanting some basic continuity.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

You mean you failed to see any of that.

The presence or absence of ships is never discussed, either. For all we know, the E-E single-handedly won the war using some classic nonviolent Trek trick behind the scenes, and then let the mighty battlefleets think the war was won by their firepower...

I failed to see it because they didn’t show it. They didn’t show it thus it isn’t canon. And that’s what we’re discussing here. Established canon. Not if and might hypotheticals.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

...Although probably not.

Then why are you still arguing about it?

 

[Ithekro]

There were a lot of battles in that war that we never got to see, but heard about in brief, plus the massive lists of casualties. Enterprise could have been anywhere in those messes and still never appear anyplace in DS9. We only knowingly saw parts of three of the Federation fleets that were active during the war. We heard about other fleets.

 

[Timo]

I failed to see it because they didn’t show it. They didn’t show it thus it isn’t canon. And that’s what we’re discussing here. Canon. Not if and might hypothesis.

Fully agreed. Which is why I feel it important to make a clear distinction between what's established in canon about how hero ships from other shows should behave when guesting (generally they remain unseen for in-studio reasons) and what is not (they are not obligated to remain unseen by any in-universe reason, and we cannot derive any sort of a rationale or modus operandi that would support the absence of Pike's ship, or Decker's, or Tracey's, in-universe, from the mere absence of the ships in-studio).

Then why are you still arguing about it?

Because that is the real argument - whether canon precedent allows for Pike's ship to appear, in-universe. Because as we know, the in-studio motivations vary, and the odds of the studio wanting Pike's ship to appear are in fact rather high, so it's important to know if there are in-universe factors offsetting that.

The absence of Picard from his contemporary spinoffs is not a good argument for or against anything, because he and his ship did briefly appear in DS9, and his crew appeared in VOY several times. Worse still, the rather insignificant Defiant of TOS made a surprise appearance in ENT, just because. "Mostly remaining unseen" has weaker evidence value than idle speculation, really.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

In that case I’m sure there will be lot of battles in the Klingon war that we never get to see either. Pike and the Enterprise could be involved in those battles and still never appear onscreen in DIS. Again, same thing and problem solved.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, though, arguing about the nature of precedent is important, because it shows how hollow it is to rely on said precedent. At the very best, we can now argue that TPTB are allowed to let Pike's ship remain unseen. But we can't argue it would be "as justified as with the E-D" or "as justified as with the E-E", and we may end up thinking the wrong level of justification.

Not that there'd be any disappointment involved. Pike's ship appears, with or without Pike, cool. Pike's ship never appears, cool. But such things are actually crucial to the prequel nature of DSC - people judge the show rather fundamentally on whether it sneaks in TOS references or not, and so far it has failed to sneak in TOS Klingons when it could have. Sneaking in the TOS ship in a battle scene would be very closely analogous to having a TOS Klingon in the crowd in one of the two pilot hours, and is of continuing interest. It's not a problem to be solved (any absence of fictionally existing things in Trek is always justified, including that of Spock's parents or half-siblings or entire interstellar wars and nemesis species), it's an ongoing source of intrigue significant to quite a few in-universe and in-studio questions.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

Picard's ship not appearing during the Dominion War parts of DS9 can be very studio driven as well as guest star driven. Pike's ship not appearing in Discovery? Well unlike during the DS9 days...aside from the Kelvinverse, there is no other Star Trek going on right now, and none of it is happening at the same time as Discovery. The 2009 Star Trek's USS Enterprise is brand new in the film and off on her first mission in 2258....two years after the events seen in the pilot for Discovery...as well as being in another universe. Tie in novels for Discovery already have USS Enterprise under Captain Pike with officer Spock onboard at least a year prior to the pilot, as The Cage takes place roughly two years prior to Discovery's pilot episodes. Thus there is a USS Enterprise with a Captain Pike running around someplace already during Discovery. It just comes down to if the studio wants to put in the effort to bring out a model of the Enterprise, and/or hire some people to play some of the roles of Pike and his crew. Especially Spock, as that does tie in directly with the show's current main character.

 

[Timo]

...In that respect, it's sort of relevant that Zachary Quinto was in no way involved in filming the first season. As far as we know, and we should know. Pike can be whomever, Number One can be whomever, but the studio should be interested in the face of Quinto first and foremost here.

So we're probably talking second season gimmick at best. But when that one rolls, all the above applies in full.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[mattman8907]

after reading Desperate Hours, I'm all for wanting Pike and the Enterprise to show up in Discovery. see how he interacts with Lorca.

 

[Timo]

Then again, from what I gather, the novel plays it out conventionally, with the hero ship being big and important and helpful. In the onscreen context, none of that need hold true, and the opposite might be more interesting. A good reason to see Pike and his ship on screen, but despite the novel, not because of it.

Trek until now hasn't had the courage to drop heroes down a peg in face of other heroes - Picard comes out clean from what at first looked bad in "Emissary", TNG cameos in DS9 and VOY work out nicely for the guest stars. When they need Antagonist Captain in "Jem'Hadar", they swap Picard and his ship for lookalikes. Etc. And when Kirk makes an ass of himself in TMP and ST2:TWoK, there aren't spinoff heroes there to witness his shame.

Perhaps Pike could pay a visit and look as insecure as at the start of "The Cage"? Or perhaps he could save the day and put Burnham to utter shame, instead of giving her a Mary Sue moment in the unseen but ongoing ST: The Pike Chronicles series.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Blamo]

It's possible that the Enterprise and her sisters haven't been launched yet (I don't care what an encylcopedia says). Also the constitution-class was more about deep space exploration so it'll be far away from the federation and even at max warp it'll take a while for it to get back.

Same goes for the Sovereign-class. By the time of the Dominion war there wouldn't be that many of them and most of them would either be protecting Federation member worlds or out in unexplored space.

I don't remember many/any Akira's either.

 

[Spike730]

Well, Picard said in STIX "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?". This suggests at least to me that they did indeed see some action during the Dominion War.

Personally, I wouldn't want to see the Enterprise but another Constitution class would be ok. This war will probably be fought on many fronts and with the personal connection between Burnham and Spock this show already suffers from "Small Universe" Syndrome.

 

[Timo]

It's possible that the Enterprise and her sisters haven't been launched yet (I don't care what an encylcopedia says).

Me neither. But Star Trek says NCC-1701 is already flying around, and has been doing so for a couple of years already. It's 2256, and Pike's Big Adventure took place thirteen years before early TOS or what works out to 2266 at the very latest.

Also the constitution-class was more about deep space exploration

...And about guarding the long-silent Romulan Neutral Zone. What's Pike's excuse for not guarding the long-silent Klingon Neutral Zone? Is he racist?

so it'll be far away from the federation and even at max warp it'll take a while for it to get back.

But since Kirk did RNZ sentry, despite his deep space stints, it follows that somebody probably is at the RNZ when Kirk is away, and that a perfect mirror in which this somebody flies a Constitution is perfectly possible given the precedent.

Same goes for the Sovereign-class. By the time of the Dominion war there wouldn't be that many of them and most of them would either be protecting Federation member worlds or out in unexplored space.

Picard never took his Sovereign to unexplored space. Would others? At the very least, since Picard didn't, his ship should have been available for the "protecting the UFP" bit. Many planets to protect out there - but apparently fleets of starships aren't involved in that stuff much, as the fleet near Betazed was in training maneuvers rather than minding the shop when the Dominion came.

The fleet protecting Earth refused to join the effort to liberate DS9, indicating Sisko believed it would be able to join in the time allocated. For most of the operations we see in DS9, the schedule wouldn't have been quite that tight. If taking Chin'toka really was important, why wouldn't the E-E be sent there? If taking Cardassia itself was, again why would the E-E mind a side theater (especially as the enemy had just volunteered to vacate the side theaters)?

I don't remember many/any Akira's either.

All the fleets had those, because the model was so pretty and detailed. All also had Mirandas for the same reason, and then filler ships. The only ships that didn't make regular appearances were Nebulas, again because the model at that point wasn't particularly good, but there were a couple of appearances nevertheless.

The total absence of the Norway was due to the model being lost. The total absence of the Constitution was due to the model not being easy to film, and to dramatic decisions about not showing "Kirk's ship". The total absence of the Sovereign would have been purely due to dramatic decisions, though. (The total absence of the Oberth was just common sense. )

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

Well, Picard said in STIX "Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?". This suggests at least to me that they did indeed see some action during the Dominion War.

Hmh? Wouldn't he then say "Can anyone remember when we used to be warriors?" instead?

After all, when he says the line, he's neither explorer nor warrior. He's playing host to a fancy party, and about to move his ship to an archaeological dig for several weeks at least (the timescale he worries about is "seasons"). He drops that for a social call. Not a single military task gets a mention...

Timo Saloniemi