Are the new Klingons supposed to be White Republicans?

[Kor]

Ok, I'm curious, really I am.

For best part of thirty years I've been hearing Klingons serve as a stand in for Russians with no clear idea as to where that came from, even in TOS. It seems to rely purely on a number of preconceptions and assumptions, without anyone ever really giving any kind of rationale.

I've also heard it stated verbatim in this thread by someone who expected that to fly as a statement with no rationale, yet went on to accuse others of lazy thinking when comparing the current crop of Klingons with the alt right.

This is despite the numerous references in the show to skin colour and a cultural group feeling their identity under threat by an essentially benign group of much more diverse "outsiders", all set against a background of the show's creative team having literally stated those themes are central to the show.

So, the question I am throwing out here, especially to you @RobertCardassian, is can anyone actually provide me with a well framed argument to support the assertion the Klingons are, or ever have been, a stand in for the USSR?

Nimoy once said so.

And there was a Trek film released in 1991 entitled Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which definitely overplayed the Cold War allegory with a disaster in Klingon space loosely modeled after the real-life Chernobyl disaster, as well as the beginning of thawing of Federation-Klingon relations being based on the real-life thaw in US-Soviet relations. And of course, the prototype Bird of Prey added a whole "Hunt for Red October in Space" aspect to the story.

Kor

 

[seigezunt]

Though it seems that in Errand of Mercy they may have had the Chinese Communists more in mind.

I suspect they were more a general baddie, though.

 

[Spot261]

Nimoy once said so.

And there was a Trek film released in 1991 entitled Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, which definitely overplayed the Cold War allegory with a disaster in Klingon space loosely modeled after the real-life Chernobyl disaster, as well as the beginning of thawing of Federation-Klingon relations being based on the real-life thaw in US-Soviet relations. And of course, the prototype Bird of Prey added a whole "Hunt for Red October in Space" aspect to the story.

Kor

Exactly, there are cold war allegories throughout trek, but it doesn't follow the Klingons are literally to be taken as wholesale substitutes for the Russians throughout the franchise. Aspects of the Cold War have seeped into various factions within the franchise without any one group necessarily acting as such a substitute which carries over consistently.

On the contrary most of our insights into Klingon culture are distinctly conservative, whilst the Federation in many ways conforms far more closely to a communist ideology whilst often behaving exactly nothing like the US.

As a fandom we have tended to ascribe the Klingons to the role of Soviet stand in primarily because of an assumption based on the demographics of the viewership. The Federation become the USA because the mainly American viewership associate themselves with the main characters, the "good guys", despite that faction actually bearing very little real resemblance to them as a nation. Conversely there's a tendency to associate the antagonist with real life adversaries, despite an equivalent lack of objective similarity.

As to the Discovery Klingons, the white nationalist analogy, fear of cultural contamination and encroaching obsolescence are not new themes. TOS portrayed Klingons as a blank slate but the movie and TNG portrayals actually bear a lot of similarities to those of STD in terms of those sentiments and motivations. T'Kuvma draws heavily on both Kruge and Chang in this regard.

The fact those themes resonate with the alt right and white nationalism is hardly ham fisted, it's more a question of the way themes recur over time and questions societies were asking of themselves twenty, thirty, fifty years ago are still meaningful in the modern world.

 

[SG-17]

The writers should have thought of that before before they decided to set the show in the ToS era, no?

Why? The Klingons aren't literally the USSR and it's not set in the mid-20th Century.

No, that makes no sense. Trek was about making references to contemporary issues. Setting the show in the TOS era doesn't mean the references have to be about the 1960s.

All could have been avoided if this show was set in the mid-to-late 25th century instead of being another goddamn prequel.

 

[Nyotarules]

Well if its true its pretty ironic those Klingons are black as my granny. Actually its funny as hell!

 

[Nyotarules]

The series looks at what is happening in the world. Bits of inspiration will have been drawn from many things. Of course as Pavel once said, if the shoe fits..

And when he said it, the shoe did not fit.

 

[Nerys Myk]

All could have been avoided if this show was set in the mid-to-late 25th century instead of being another goddamn prequel.

What could be avoided? People expecting USSR analogs in 2017?

 

[Spot261]

Well if its true its pretty ironic those Klingons are black as my granny. Actually its funny as hell!

And generally see a white Klingon as being a pariah.....

Turning things on the head to be ever so slightly less literal? Putting the white viewer in a position of empathasing with victims of racism and nationalism? Making them question how they feel about a society that requires said racial outcast go to such lengths to prove his worth?

Apparently this show should be derided for being all action and CGI with no social commentary.

 

[SG-17]

What could be avoided? People expecting USSR analogs in 2017?

Noncanon designs, anachronistic tech, contrary characterizations. Really stupid decision to set Discovery in the TOS era to play on nostalgia. If they set it in like the 2480s they could do much more without stepping on toes. Really ruins the show.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Noncanon designs, anachronistic tech, contrary characterizations. Really stupid decision to set Discovery in the TOS era to play on nostalgia. If they set it in like the 2480s they could do much more without stepping on toes. Really ruins the show.

What's non canon about the designs? Canon is what ever CBS says it is. Right now they say those designs are what the 23rd Century looks like. In another 50 years it will probably look different too. But it will be canon.

It's not real, so it can't actually be anachronistic. A 1966 Mustang appearing in a movie set in 1945 is anachronistic. Up dating the designs of a uniform or ship appearing in an SF TV show set in a fictional future is not.

Excluding Sarek, these are all new characters, Who's characterizations are contrary?

 

[Spot261]

What's non canon about the designs? Canon is what ever CBS says it is. Right now they say those designs are what the 23rd Century looks like. In another 50 years it will probably look different too. But it will be canon.

It's not real, so it can't actually be anachronistic. A 1966 Mustang appearing in a movie set in 1945 is anachronistic. Up dating the designs of a uniform or ship appearing in an SF TV show set in a fictional future is not.

Excluding Sarek, these are all new characters, Who's characterizations are contrary?

Glad you pointed all that out, just left this:

Really stupid decision to set Discovery in the TOS era to play on nostalgia

Sorry, where was the playing on nostalgia?

 

[SG-17]

What's non canon about the designs? Canon is what ever CBS says it is. Right now they say those designs are what the 23rd Century looks like. In another 50 years it will probably look different too. But it will be canon.

It's not real, so it can't actually be anachronistic. A 1966 Mustang appearing in a movie set in 1945 is anachronistic. Up dating the designs of a uniform or ship appearing in an SF TV show set in a fictional future is not.

Excluding Sarek, these are all new characters, Who's characterizations are contrary?

The designs and tech directly contradict TOS so its less-than-canon. Enterprise at least tried to avoid looking too futuristic for established canon. The Klingons, their appearance and characterization is contrary to TOS.

Sorry, where was the playing on nostalgia?

Being set 10 minutes into the past from TOS is playing on nostalgia. I don't see how this isn't obvious?

Nothing they are doing with the show would have been a problem if it was set a good time jump after Voyager/Nemesis/'09 Flashback. But the show is ruined by its setting.

 

[JamesRye]

Setting it post Voyager wouldn't work. Ablative armour, messing with time travel, quantum torpedoes, sentient holograms. The technology had become magic.

Better to have set in in the Kelvin timeline,which is what it looks like. They could still go that route as nothing has been established yet.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The designs and tech directly contradict TOS so its less-than-canon. Enterprise at least tried to avoid looking too futuristic for established canon. The Klingons, their appearance and characterization is contrary to TOS.

Canon is mutable. That's why Clark Kent doesn't work at the Daily Star and as Superman can only leap an eighth of a mile.

 

[SG-17]

Canon is mutable. That's why Clark Kent doesn't work at the Daily Star and as Superman can only leap an eighth of a mile.

If you really want to dig into that, that Superman exists on Earth-Two, or did, or whatever with the crazy multiverse of DC.

There is a difference between actively retconning something and just ignoring it for shits and giggles.

 

[Spot261]

The designs and tech directly contradict TOS so its less-than-canon

I'm not sure you quite understand what "canon" means. CBS hold the rights to trek and thus any product they produce is canon, regardless of how it does or does not fit in with previous iterations. Canonicity has nothing to do with continuity, nor is it democratically decided by the fanbase, forum posters or "youtubers", contrary to the beliefs of a significant portion of that fanbase.

We as fans have no input in what qualifies as canon, that question quite literally starts and stops with CBS, we simply choose whether to watch or not.

The Klingons, their appearance and characterization is contrary to TOS.

The TNG appearance differed just as greatly, we accepted Worf just fine. The only way it really jarred then was in the clumsy attempts to make it all piece together after the fact.

As for characterisation, the feudal, imperialistic and somewhat zenophobic race, forever at odds with themselves and obsessing over an idealised concept of honour whilst falling far short in practise have been misrepresented how?

Being set 10 minutes into the past from TOS is playing on nostalgia. I don't see how this isn't obvious?

Not really. The timeframe alone is far from sufficient to warrant an accusation of playing on nostalgia. Making gratuitous use of touchstones, familiar characters, TOS references and "easter eggs" and justifying it by that timeframe would qualify, but happily hasn't been evident.

 

[Kor]

Relations between the Federation and the Klingons were loosely based on the Cold War. That doesn't mean the Klingons were supposed to be perfectly analogous to Soviet Russia in every aspect.

The Klingons were an antagonistic "other" with an authoritarian state that was contrary to the values of the Federation "free world." All-out war was avoided in the period of TOS and the TOS movies, but there were other conflicts in which minor powers clearly had Klingon backing. This echoes various real-world conflicts during the Cold War era.

And then TNG changed the dynamic to show that even in real life, amends can be made and former enemies can become friends, and then we can learn all about their rich and ancient honor-based culture and warrior-ethic spirituality and their fine cuisine which includes living worm things.

Kor

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

Relations between the Federation and the Klingons were loosely based on the Cold War. That doesn't mean the Klingons were supposed to be perfectly analogous to Soviet Russia in every aspect.

The Klingons were an antagonistic "other" with an authoritarian state that was contrary to the values of the Federation "free world." All-out war was avoided in the period of TOS and the TOS movies, but there were other conflicts in which minor powers clearly had Klingon backing. This echoes various real-world conflicts during the Cold War era.

This. "A Private Little War" was a barely-veiled parable about Vietnam.

 

[fireproof78]

All could have been avoided if this show was set in the mid-to-late 25th century instead of being another goddamn prequel.

And would have lost a lot of a potential audience.

 

[BillJ]

This. "A Private Little War" was a barely-veiled parable about Vietnam.

Yeah, but it also had Nona and the Mugato. Weird things that help sell that it as taking place on a far off land with its own problems.