Spoilers What is a dealbreaker for me so far - Technology question

[tomswift2002]

Nope, the other emblems were a production error by the costuming department. Non-Enterprise personnel are seen wearing the delta in "Court Martial". And if we wanna play canon,IIRC it was never called the "warp delta" and all the starbases used the same emblem.

What do you mean the "other emblems were a production error"? In The Ultimate Computer we saw Commodore Robert Wesley and other Lexington crew members wearing sunburst-type emblem, and in Enterprise's In A Mirror Darkly, we saw a very different emblem for the USS Defiant.

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:Defiant_operations_lieutenant.jpg

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Bob_Wesley

In terms of technology, the main issue I saw was, why was the Shenzhou's bridge so big???? In both The Cage and right up through to Star Trek III, the knees of both Pike and Kirk are nearly in the backs of their conn and flight officers. The Shenzhou's bridge looked more like Voyager or the E-D and E-E where there was tons of room between the Captain's chair and the conn/helm chairs.

 

[Albinator]

The fact that so many fans are hung up on the make up, ship design, canon "violations" and fictional technology and FX like blasters vs beams is REALLY sad.

Those who complain that it doesn't feel like a story that is befitting Trek... while I may disagree (vehemently) at least they're focusing on the thing that matters.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In terms of technology, the main issue I saw was, why was the Shenzhou's bridge so big????

Variety?

Starfleet has dozens, if not hundreds, of possible bridge modules that can be swapped out and replaced at will (we've known for some time that this is how bridges are constructed - starships can change bridges as easily as you or I change shirts). So at this specific point in time, the Shenzhou just happens to be using a bridge that's bigger than the others that are available. They could have chosen any number of others, they just happened to pick a big one.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What do you mean the "other emblems were a production error"? In The Ultimate Computer we saw Commodore Robert Wesley and other Lexington crew members wearing sunburst-type emblem, and in Enterprise's In A Mirror Darkly, we saw a very different emblem for the USS Defiant.

Justman sent a memo about it explaining that all Starship personnel wear the same emblem way back in the 1960's long before In A Mirror Darkly was made.

TO: Bill Theiss

FROM: Bob Justman

SUBJECT: STARSHIP EMBLEMS

DATE: December 18, 1967

Whilst sitting in Dailies today, it was noticed that a Starship Captain (from another Starship) was wearing an emblem unfamiliar to yours truly. I have checked the occurences out with Mr. Roddenberry, who has reassured me that all Starship personnel wear the Starship emblem that we have established for our Enterprise Crew Members to wear.

Doubtless this situation has arisen due to the fact that a different Starship emblem was used last season on “CHARLIE X”. However, the personnel of that other ship in that show were the equivalent of merchant marine or freighter personnel — and therefore not entitled to bear this proud insignia on their individual and collective breasts.

Please do not do anything to correct this understandable mistake in the present episode. However, should we have Starfleet personnel in any other episodes, please make certain that they were the proper emblem.

Under penalty of death!

Signed this 18th day of December, in the year of our Lord, 1967, by

ROBERT H. JUSTMAN

Chief Inquisitor



CC: Gene Roddenberry

John M. Lucas

D.C. Fontana

Gregg Peters

RHJ:sts

P.S. A carven “I’m sorry!” will be sufficient.

R.H.J.

 

[tomswift2002]

Justman sent a memo about it explaining that all Starship personnel wear the same emblem way back in the 1960's long before In A Mirror Darkly was made.

Well, that's a non-canon source. Apparently, even though I don't agree that Enterprise is canon, never the less, the producers appeared to accept as cannon the different emblem per ship. And it fits in with current NASA assignment patches as well.

 

[GilmourD]

Same thing happened in TMP. And no they're not "completely different". They just made the Klingons "more Klingon". These Klingons seem to follow a more ancient philosophy.

That was a change in makeup technology that was given an in-universe explanation with A LOT of backstory. So, all that backstory is ignored?

They seem to follow the basic goose design introduced in TOS. I think Jefferies only designed one Starfleet ship for TOS. I'd like to think in universe there is more than one design. Shenzhou is obviously descended from the NX-Class.

The basic modular design of the ships, in universe, was used across multiple classes. Also, all warp nacelles were cylindrical from Cochrane's first prototypes all the way up until the refit in 2270, including the NX-01. Bridge designs were all fairly similar. Hull shapes followed similar lines. Also, transporter rooms were all pretty similar in layout. Discovery bucks all that.

The Discovery borrows heavily from the design Ralph McQuarrie submitted for TMP that was rejected in favor of Matt Jefferies redesigning based on the original ship. This redesign was, again, modularly used for other ships, like the Reliant and the Saratoga

Now I'm working with only on-screen ships, here. We have the Daedalus class, again with cylindrical nacelles and a very primative shape:

We all know what the NX-01 looked like. Also, a lot of ships from The Starfleet Technical Manual appeared as graphics on screen on the Enterprise in the movies, technically making them canon.

But then we've got the USS Shenzhou with squared off nacelles that sorta look like they're off the Enterprise-E:

And then the Discovery, with rectangular-ish nacelles:

Nope, the other emblems were a production error by the costuming department. Non-Enterprise personnel are seen wearing the delta in "Court Martial". And if we wanna play canon,IIRC it was never called the "warp delta" and all the starbases used the same emblem.

What about the Constellation, Exeter, and Defiant, all Constitution-class ships with different patches? It's not like they were unimportant ships randomly named. They were the Enterprise's sister ships and their patches were shown prominently on screen with significant design work. That letter above came well into production and was seemingly a change in decision

He also has a half brother!!!! And get this, Kirk has a son and Scotty has a nephew!!!! Who knew????? For the record Burnham wasn't adopted by Sarek. She's his ward. Yes there are uniforms.

It's weak storytelling at the very least. How many secret people could Spock possibly have in his life?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, that's a non-canon source. Apparently, even though I don't agree that Enterprise is canon, never the less, the producers appeared to accept as cannon the different emblem per ship. And it fits in with current NASA assignment patches as well.

Justman was a producer for TOS. He helped invent the canon!

 

[tomswift2002]

Variety?

Starfleet has dozens, if not hundreds, of possible bridge modules that can be swapped out and replaced at will (we've known for some time that this is how bridges are constructed - starships can change bridges as easily as you or I change shirts). So at this specific point in time, the Shenzhou just happens to be using a bridge that's bigger than the others that are available. They could have chosen any number of others, they just happened to pick a big one.

So your telling me that the Flagship of Starfleet gets stuck with one of the tiniest bridges around for decades, while other ships get gigantic bridges? Also it doesn't quite flow with the design from the NX class, or what we see of shuttles in today's era. Yes from the NX to Constitution class there is slightly more leg room between the captain's chair and conn/flight console, but to go from the NX version to the amount of space on Voyager and the E-E in 100 years, doesn't make a lot of sense (not to mention in These Are The Voyages, but Riker mentions how cramped the NX-01 feels compared to the E-D).

 

[tomswift2002]

Justman was a producer for TOS. He helped invent the canon!

He may've, but at the same time he also helped propel that what was on screen is canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

So your telling me that the Flagship of Starfleet gets stuck with one of the tiniest bridges around for decades, while other ships get gigantic bridges?

I'm not telling you that. Onscreen evidence is.

And the notion of "the flagship of Starfleet" (which, in and of itself, makes no sense, as the word 'flagship' simply means wherever the Admiral of the Fleet is stationed - it's where he or she has the flag, as it were*) didn't come into play until TNG, where starship bridges were so huge that they dwarfed the Shenzhou's.

* in DSC, for example, the Europa was a flagship, since it's where Admiral Anderson was stationed. He planted his flag there. That's the only meaning that the word "flagship" actually has.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That was a change in makeup technology that was given an in-universe explanation with A LOT of backstory. So, all that backstory is ignored?

No, it was "lets make the Klingons look more alien", same as in Discovery.

The basic modular design of the ships, in universe, was used across multiple classes. Also, all warp nacelles were cylindrical from Cochrane's first prototypes all the way up until the refit in 2270, including the NX-01. Bridge designs were all fairly similar. Hull shapes followed similar lines. Also, transporter rooms were all pretty similar in layout. Discovery bucks all that.

Round hull and some nacelles is the design for most Starfleet ships. Discovery and Shenzhou follow that. Discovery has a "traditional' transporter room, IIRC. Shenzou is a different design and the reason is mentioned in the show.

The Discovery borrows heavily from the design Ralph McQuarrie submitted for TMP that was rejected in favor of Matt Jefferies redesigning based on the original ship. This redesign was, again, modularly used for other ships, like the Reliant and the Saratoga

Ships that have "square" nacelles

We all know what the NX-01 looked like. Also, a lot of ships from The Starfleet Technical Manual appeared as graphics on screen on the Enterprise in the movies, technically making them canon.

Yes an Shenzhou shares a lot with it
Who said they didn't?

And then the Discovery, with rectangular-ish nacelles:

Just like the refit, the Reliant and the Saratoga

What about the Constellation, Exeter, and Defiant, all Constitution-class ships with different patches? It's not like they were unimportant ships randomly named. They were the Enterprise's sister ships and their patches were shown prominently on screen with significant design work. That letter above came well into production and was seemingly a change in decision

What about them? It was in 1967. The wardrobe department screwed up. Read the memo. It wasn't a change in decision, it was an error that slipped by the producers.

It's weak storytelling at the very least. How many secret people could Spock possibly have in his life?

Who says it was a secret? Has Spock ever denied have a "sister"? Was he ever asked about having a sister? The audience is not privy to everything in Spock or Sarek's lives. We are given the information when it pertains to the story and not a moment sooner. That's how fiction works. You aren't issued official in depth bios prior to watching a TV show or reading a book.
Spock's lived a long life. You can meet a lot of people over the course of two centuries. He may have a wife or children we've yet to hear about.
If it's "weak storytelling" then the history of great literature is riddled with it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He may've, but at the same time he also helped propel that what was on screen is canon.

That came later.

 

[Gojira]

My main issues here are the things that just make this not work within the confines of this happening in 2255. The Constitution Class Enterprise was already 10 years old and Pike would've been captain at this point in time. There's a bunch of big things and little things that really just pulled me out of it. I don't mind a visual update based on the original style but there's a lot of stuff just ignored.

• So we've got Klingons... Completely different appearance, first of all. Second, Klingons historically think of the body as disposable once the spirit has left.
• Ship design... Klingon ships are wildly different. ALL of the Starfleet ships look like they're based on Ralph McQuarrie designs mixed with Voyager rather than the traditional Matt Jefferies designs.
• The Enterprise warp delta emblem wasn't adopted as the symbol of the entire Starfleet until AFTER Kirk's first five-year mission. Before that, every ship and starbase had their own emblem.
• Spock has an adopted sister??? WTF?
• Uniforms??? WTF?

It seems some people won't be happy unless Star Trek looks like a 1960s type of fan film series like Star Trek Continues....

 

[F. King Daniel]

That was a change in makeup technology that was given an in-universe explanation with A LOT of backstory. So, all that backstory is ignored?

That explanation took 30 years to materialize and was never the original intention (as Gene Roddenberry was frequently quoted on, Klingons always looked like that). So come back in 2047, and if they still haven't explained it you can be mad.

 

[Shatinator]

Again, as seen in Wrath of Khan but from all banks. Click!

King Daniel Beyond, I read your posts for some time to know you have seen more than enough of Trek to know the difference between short curtailed truncated lines and long slopping ones.

Especially since the first image you linked to wasn't even a original image from ST:WOK, but from here ...

http://www.drunktiki.com/2014/04/05/star-trek-ii-phaser-battle/star-trek-ii-phaser-battle-jpg/

As other have noted the ST:WOK phasers more fully were represented as this ...

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=36&pid=1417#top_display_media
and
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=42&pid=2587#top_display_media

Very different from the culturally recognizable "Pew - Pew" that ST Dis employed; ... don't you think?

 

[Wulfsa]

Technology evolves fast, look at our phones, take a phone from the 90tys and a up to date iphone... its like from another world. So i think phaser-emitters photontorpedos and everything else can change in Months or a couple of years... thats no problem in my eyes. All i can say, from all discussions i have about DIS, nothing is clear, we´ve read the first 2 chapters of a book, we dont know whats comming and whats going to be explained. The Universe is so big, how you wanna know if Starfleet has in this time period no other Androids, or technology u dont see in TOS, Federation is big, many ships from diffrent species. Fact is we know so little and there is so much more to explore.

 

[F. King Daniel]

King Daniel Beyond, I read your posts for some time to know you have seen more than enough of Trek to know the difference between short curtailed truncated lines and long slopping ones.

Especially since the first image you linked to wasn't even a original image from ST:WOK, but from here ...

http://www.drunktiki.com/2014/04/05/star-trek-ii-phaser-battle/star-trek-ii-phaser-battle-jpg/

As other have noted the ST:WOK phasers more fully were represented as this ...

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=36&pid=1417#top_display_media
and
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=42&pid=2587#top_display_media

Very different from the culturally recognizable "Pew - Pew" that ST Dis employed; ... don't you think?

Not really. The bolts are longer, the aiming more deliberate, only one or two banks fire at once and the whole thing is slower, but I think it's 1982's version of the same thing.

 

[Paradise City]

I actually think that In a Mirror Darkly episodes or ( albeit to a lesser degree) even DS9's TOS tribble tribute gave a good account of the 60s aesthetic in modern terms. Reembracing that broad aesthetic would actually be quite experimental. I mean the new console design isn't really any different than any other futuristic console design in sci-fi that's doing the rounds.

I do like it if they sail in broad proximity to canon. But it's just a bit of icing on the cake for me, I by no means require it nor even expect it. I do kinda wish they just set it in a new trek universe entirely just to clear up alot of the canon-babble that goes on in forums and the like.

But I do expect a good cake. Rich storylines, engaging and demanding characters, strong acting. But I'm not seeing that at this point IMHO.

There's nothing to "hate" here either, I didn't find myself grimacing or frowning or anything like that whilst watching it. It's just when the credits rolled I felt a bit undernourished after watching it.

 

[CardassianAssassin]

I honestly feel I love these uniforms just because of Futurama. OH MY GOD CHARACTER WISE SARU IS KIFF. My mind just exploded.

All that's needed are Kiffs sighs and moans.

Wait... So who's Amy?!

Saru is starting to be my favorite character. Though I wonder about the federations personnel decisions: The most cowardly race in the universe, and rather than putting them in the kitchen or something, they put them on the bridge?!

 

[CardassianAssassin]

It's weak storytelling at the very least. How many secret people could Spock possibly have in his life?

I agree. Though on the other hand, would Spock really be quick to brag about his mutineering, ex-con halfsister?

It also makes Sarek come across really weird. As some social-engineering obsessed wacko, who for shit and giggles experiments with raising kids in completely different cultures first chance he gets.