Could Anakin's Fall to the Dark Side Have Been Done Better?

[fireproof78]

His line delivery is a little flat because he's pants-shittingly nervous at seeing Padme again, which is why Obi-Wan brought it up: to try and help him relax with a little banter. That's the whole point of this scene.

Whether or not that's the point, I'm not arguing with. I'm arguing that the delivery or presentation comes across as snarky from Anakin towards Obi-Wan, which is then augmented by his interactions with Obi-Wan in front of Padme. I get the intention but the presentation doesn't sell it in a convincing way for me as them being friends.

 

[Reverend]

Y'know, considering how many of Padme's scenes in both AOTC and ROTS hit the cutting room floor (and there's still a few left that haven't been released anywhere), I gotta wonder what was going on. On paper she had as much of a story arc as Obi-Wan or Anakin did, yet on screen it was all pruned to the barest possible minimum. There was nothing wrong with Natalie Portman's performance in the deleted scenes we've seen so far, so what was Lucas's problem?

Lucas's favourite place to be is the editing room, so I suspect the primary concern was the movie's pacing. As it stands there's a lot of talking and not much action in the second act (pretty much nothing from the speeder chase to the Jango fight), which is where most of those talky scenes were culled from.
Several of Obi-Wan's investigation scenes were cut to so I suspect that was left at the bare minimum to still be able to propel the plot in a coherent fashion.
That leaves all the Anakin/Padme scenes and the ones to go or at least trimmed had to be the one's that don't add as much to the progress of their relationship. I think it was basically a choice between a more fleshed out romance (so to speak) or a second act that didn't drag and send half the audience to sleep.

Whether or not that's the point, I'm not arguing with. I'm arguing that the delivery or presentation comes across as snarky from Anakin towards Obi-Wan, which is then augmented by his interactions with Obi-Wan in front of Padme. I get the intention but the presentation doesn't sell it in a convincing way for me as them being friends.

Try watching it again and this time watch watch Christensen actually does. He's playing someone who's extremely nervous and adjudicated, but that adjudication is not directed at Obi-Wan. He has to maintain that state because in the next scene he meets Padme and he still needs to be in that state. It's a valid acting choice because he's maintaining his character's emotional continuity.

Also consider that the way they behave around each other in the speeder chase and in Palpatine's rescue (and 80% of TCW come to that.) Snarky banter is kind of their whole thing and there's no lack of respect in it for either of them. They're brothers.
Obi-Wan is intentionally provoking Anakin into biting back to try and distract him so he can relax a bit. I mean, do you really think he'd forgotten that *he* was the one that fell into a gundark nest? Unlikely.

 

[USS Firefly]

I couldn agree more. In EP II they are together for ten years, and are behaving like brothers.
And of course Anakin was sometimes disrespectful, who isn't when you are together for so many years, even obi was in EP 1

 

[fireproof78]

Try watching it again and this time watch watch Christensen actually does. He's playing someone who's extremely nervous and adjudicated, but that adjudication is not directed at Obi-Wan. He has to maintain that state because in the next scene he meets Padme and he still needs to be in that state. It's a valid acting choice because he's maintaining his character's emotional continuity.

Also consider that the way they behave around each other in the speeder chase and in Palpatine's rescue (and 80% of TCW come to that.) Snarky banter is kind of their whole thing and there's no lack of respect in it for either of them. They're brothers.
Obi-Wan is intentionally provoking Anakin into biting back to try and distract him so he can relax a bit. I mean, do you really think he'd forgotten that *he* was the one that fell into a gundark nest? Unlikely.

I did, a couple of times, and I pick up on his nervousness, as well as Obi-Wan's attempt to get him to laugh and relax. Again, Anakin's snark is what is off putting. Even if it isn't directed at Obi-Wan, which is understandable, given Padme's proximity, it still comes across as disrespectful.

Looking back, yes, it comes to fit their day to day banter. But, in that first scene, it is very off putting. Regardless, Anakin still never struck me as respectful of Obi-Wan, but that also might be the acting too.

 

[suarezguy]

While I thought the overall portrayal was OK, I did think it was a mistake to start Anakin at 9 years old and then skip ahead 10 years so that in Episode II he feels pretty much like a different character, starting him older (like 12 or 13 or even 14) and maybe keeping the same actor would probably go a way to making him more sympathetic.

I think it would also make him more likeable if he had at least thought much more about leaving the Jedi in Episode II in order to be with Padme rather than assuming that he should have both in his life and lying was probably the best option.

 

[EnderAKH]

Looking back, yes, it comes to fit their day to day banter. But, in that first scene, it is very off putting. Regardless, Anakin still never struck me as respectful of Obi-Wan, but that also might be the acting too.

I agree, at that point we are seeing Obi-Wan and Anakin together for the first time since we last saw him as a little boy, the banter doesn't feel earned.

 

[Kor]

I feel like he let himself get duped into joining Palpatine and turning to the Dark Side, as he basically had nowhere else to turn to at that point.

Kor

 

[LJones41]

We barely saw Kylo's fall so that's not a fair comparison.

Rey was a part of her personal growth and expansion of her worldview. But, she could have turned her back on it at any time. Anakin never felt like he had any agency beyond what was necessary for him to be come Vader.

More succinctly-I felt like Rey was a person vs. Anakin who felt more 1 dimensional.

So . . . how will Disney explain Kylo Ren's downfall? Through another trilogy? Flashbacks?

I'm sorry, but I don't have a high opinion of "THE FORCE AWAKENS". I can't help how I feel.

 

[USS Firefly]

I feel like he let himself get duped into joining Palpatine and turning to the Dark Side, as he basically had nowhere else to turn to at that point.

Kor

And he was 9 years old when Palpatine began manipulating Anakin, till he was like 23. At that time Palpatine was like an uncle for him

 

[Tuskin38]

So . . . how will Disney explain Kylo Ren's downfall? Through another trilogy? Flashbacks?

I'm sorry, but I don't have a high opinion of "THE FORCE AWAKENS". I can't help how I feel.

How about you have patience. We haven’t even got the second movie yet.

It will be explained eventually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Luke told us.

 

[fireproof78]

So . . . how will Disney explain Kylo Ren's downfall? Through another trilogy? Flashbacks?

I'm sorry, but I don't have a high opinion of "THE FORCE AWAKENS". I can't help how I feel.

How interesting. Why not wait and see, since not all was revealed in ANH about Vader's fall, I'm not certain of the why that Kylo Ren should be explained fully in TFA.

Secondarily, no one is asking anyone to change how they feel, any more individuals who dislike the PT are being asked to change how they feel.

 

[JD]

It's ridiculous to criticize the unanswered questions in the new trilogy before we get the second and third movies. Half the point of a first movie like TFA is to leave us with enough unanswered questions to get us to come back to get the answers.

 

[arch101]

Still wondering how Jonathan Brandis would have done in this role....

 

[LJones41]

How about you have patience. We haven’t even got the second movie yet.

I don't see why I should have any patience toward a character I couldn't give a rat's ass about. I'm sorry, but I just don't.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see why I should have any patience toward a character I couldn't give a rat's ass about. I'm sorry, but I just don't.

I feel the same way about Anakin.

 

[Tuskin38]

I don't see why I should have any patience

Because things change.

I didn't care about PT Era Anakin at all until Clone Wars came around.

Something might happen in EP8 that would change your mind.

Also please quote correctly so people are notified when you quote them.

 

[VulcanMindBlown]

People have said that George should have cast two other actors instead of Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen. Who do people want them to be replaced by....???

Had the character been sympathetic or likeable, the arc would have worked a million times better.

I'm hoping for a big turn in the next Star Wars movies - I want Kylo Ren to turn to the light side. Why? They made me care about the character. Anakin could save vanished midway through Attack of the Clones and I may not have noticed.

What would make him more likable when he was shifting to the Dark Side? It is a jump to go from Anakin in the movies to a more beneficial hero in the shows or anything about the Clone Wars.

While I thought the overall portrayal was OK, I did think it was a mistake to start Anakin at 9 years old and then skip ahead 10 years so that in Episode II he feels pretty much like a different character, starting him older (like 12 or 13 or even 14) and maybe keeping the same actor would probably go a way to making him more sympathetic.

I think it would also make him more likeable if he had at least thought much more about leaving the Jedi in Episode II in order to be with Padme rather than assuming that he should have both in his life and lying was probably the best option.

A lot can change when you hit puberty!!! I think that the change from wanting to leave the Jedi Order in Episode II would have been too soon.

I feel like he let himself get duped into joining Palpatine and turning to the Dark Side, as he basically had nowhere else to turn to at that point.

Kor

Was that move a good move by the people who made the movies...//

 

[Kor]

I would have liked to have seen a more ideological battle with Anakin seeing how the Republic and the Jedi institutions were becoming corrupt and ineffectual, so that he actually believed that Sith rule would be better for the galaxy. He turns to the Dark Side because he truly thinks it's right. That is its seductive power.

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

Was that move a good move by the people who made the movies...//

In my opinion (since that disclaimer is apparently necessary) no. Anakin shouldn't be tricked in to joining the Dark Side. As @Kor said, he should start to believe that it is right, rather than "What have I done?" to "Yes, my Master," in the span of a scene.

 

[Reverend]

I don't think Anakin is tricked so much as trapped by his own weaknesses.
In that "yes my master" moment, he hates Palpatine, himself and what he's about to do (which is exactly how Sidious wants it) but he's past the point of no return, ethically and psychologically. In his mind, nothing (and I mean *nothing*) matters more to him than Padme's survival and if that means submitting to a Sith Lord and slaughtering literally everyone else he cares about then that's what he's going to do.

He wasn't tricked into this state of affairs, he strode quite willingly. Hell, he literally begged for it! Sure, Sidious played him like a fiddle the whole time, but that's exactly how he operates. He never really forces anyone to do anything; like any good con artist he just leverages peoples' own greed, corruption and self interest against them. Anakin chose his path of his own free will.


It's something I didn't pick up on until after several viewings, but in just about every interaction between Vader and Sidious, (going all the way back to ESB!) the pair of them are always playacting at each other. All of the "my old friend" and "yes my master" guff; it's all a facade. A verbal dance to get what they want from the other and it that way started from from the very outset. It's more about what they don't say to each other.
I'd recommend anyone not convinced of this to go back and re-watch the SE version of the holo-message scene from 'Empire Strikes Back' and really pay attention to what's not being said and how it lines up with what's actually going on. Then recall Vader's line to Luke in RotJ: "it's pointless to resist..." He's speaking from experience.