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The music on Star Trek Discovery

Imagine if someone said, "Madonna's new single didn't blow me away, but I'll leave judgment until I see the video."

It's a piece of music. Its quality should never be dependent on visuals.

That's not the best analogy. Madonna doesn't write her music for visuals. This music was written specifically based on visuals, characters and story - none of which I have experienced in their full context (at least not by me). Watch a show or film without the music, then tell me "the film's quality should 'never' be dependent on the music."

Yes, film music can be enjoyed apart from film, but it's original context is its marriage to the film, along with all of the other elements of the film. Any segment of the music can be crappy or hollow, or unenjoyable on its own. But in the context of the film, it can express just the right sound to accompany the pictures, the story, etc. On the other hand, a piece of music can be brilliant on its own, but it can also be totally wrong if its experience within a film doesn't feel right. And it's all subjective as well. So don't give me this "should never" crap.
 
Imagine if someone said, "Madonna's new single didn't blow me away, but I'll leave judgment until I see the video."

It's a piece of music. Its quality should never be dependent on visuals.
Many times (especially for films) music is written to enhance the visual elements of a scene. To say all music is the same and should be evaluated the same is just not accurate. The composer here wasn't tasked with writing a pop song; or a concert. It was a Theme for a series that will have visuals accompanying it.

That's not to say you can't judge it in a vacuum if you want - but again it was composed to be an element in a show with A LOT of other elements all mixed together.

Hell, one of my main complaints with later seasons of TNG especially was Rick Berman's 'sonic wallpaper' approach to music in that it was OBVIOUS he didn't care to have music tailored to a scene, a character or a set of visuals, or aspect of a screen story...he just wanted something there - but he could care less what.
 
Most themes are written by composers after having watched the material. Inspired by the story, the characters, the film/show. That's W TF it is.
 
None of that matters.

A good piece of music is a good piece of music. A bad piece of music is a bad piece of music. So goes for good props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances - and bad props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances. The whole is irrelevant. They hold up on their own or they don't.

And, usually, if something fails to hold up on its own, it's never going to mesh with the stuff around it. The exactly the problem with Discovery's production. Everything is so 'meh" and generic that, when it's all put together, it all comes to being an unforgettable blob blue. It's all links in a chain. But when all the links are the weak, then you've got a pretty big problem.

It's no different from a credits sequence. Like I was saying about the Bond films. There are films where the credit animation are excellent and the music left something to be desired -- and vise versa. Everyone knows "Live or Let Die," but I wonder how many people could actually pick out the credits from any of the other weaker Moore stuff. OTOH TSWLM is instantly recognizable for both things. Or Goldfinger or Skyfall.

And, as far as the music, the great Bond songs stand on their own. The bad ones don't. And, even if a bad one "fits the movie" doesn't change the fact it's an unremarkable song. And to argue otherwise, it's pretty ridiculous.

It's no different from soundtracks. People by great sound tracks because it's great music. Not on how well it "fits into the movie" Every single cue on the original Star Wars OST has become timeless. From the main theme, to the Jawa woods. They all stand on their own. And yes, the all fit their respective scenes well - if not perfectly - but that's not how they're meant to be judged as pieces of music.

And arguing that a unremarkable score is "okay" because it fits what's on screen doesn't change the fact it's unremarkable. Nor does it exclude any potential higher quality piece fitting equally well. It's just false justification.
 
I typed out a longer post, two versions in fact, but you already had it covered in the last couple of pages. :shrug:

Example: If you have to wait to see how the music plays with the visuals, then you're really admitting that it's not that great a piece of music, or you have something that's really more like incidental music.

Incidentally (ha), that's one reason why I compared the theme to incidental music upthread, aside from the main reason which is that it basically like that. (I also compared it to accompaniment.)
 
None of that matters.

A good piece of music is a good piece of music. A bad piece of music is a bad piece of music. So goes for good props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances - and bad props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances. The whole is irrelevant. They hold up on their own or they don't.

And, usually, if something fails to hold up on its own, it's never going to mesh with the stuff around it. The exactly the problem with Discovery's production. Everything is so 'meh" and generic that, when it's all put together, it all comes to being an unforgettable blob blue. It's all links in a chain. But when all the links are the weak, then you've got a pretty big problem.

The music is one thing, but I honestly would call these particular ST: D props:
Insert-Phaser2.jpg

Insert-Tricorder.jpg

Insert-Comm.jpg

Generic. The design influence from both TOS - "The Cage" and the actual aired TOS itself is very apparent here. I don't think it's fair to say everything about ST: D's production (at least what's been shown in public to date) is 'meh' and/or 'generic'.
 
Example: If you have to wait to see how the music plays with the visuals, then you're really admitting that it's not that great a piece of music, or you have something that's really more like incidental music.
This perfectly sums it up better than I did.

Or if I wanted to be snarky, I would have add "If CBS intended the music to be dependent on visuals, they would have included the visuals."

And I'm on record several times saying how much I like those things. But I've also said that they still lack ambition.
 
Color me ridiculous, wrong, or whatever. I'd simply like to see the show before I totally pan any one element. The whole is relevant to me.
 
I think it's true what @dub, @Roald and others are saying: This is a piece of music written specifically to complement a visual opening sequence. You can assess it merely as a piece of music, of course, but you can only say if it works for the opening sequence if you have actually seen the damn opening sequence. Add to that the idea that some pieces of music only grab you after repeatedly listening to them and I really don't understand why some here won't give it more of a chance. As I said earlier, I did expect something different, but it's really growing on me and I think there's a big chance it will be perfect with added visuals.
 
None of that matters.

A good piece of music is a good piece of music. A bad piece of music is a bad piece of music. So goes for good props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances - and bad props, and costumes and sets and lines of dialog and performances. The whole is irrelevant. They hold up on their own or they don't.

And, usually, if something fails to hold up on its own, it's never going to mesh with the stuff around it. The exactly the problem with Discovery's production. Everything is so 'meh" and generic that, when it's all put together, it all comes to being an unforgettable blob blue. It's all links in a chain. But when all the links are the weak, then you've got a pretty big problem.

It's no different from a credits sequence. Like I was saying about the Bond films. There are films where the credit animation are excellent and the music left something to be desired -- and vise versa. Everyone knows "Live or Let Die," but I wonder how many people could actually pick out the credits from any of the other weaker Moore stuff. OTOH TSWLM is instantly recognizable for both things. Or Goldfinger or Skyfall.

And, as far as the music, the great Bond songs stand on their own. The bad ones don't. And, even if a bad one "fits the movie" doesn't change the fact it's an unremarkable song. And to argue otherwise, it's pretty ridiculous.

It's no different from soundtracks. People by great sound tracks because it's great music. Not on how well it "fits into the movie" Every single cue on the original Star Wars OST has become timeless. From the main theme, to the Jawa woods. They all stand on their own. And yes, the all fit their respective scenes well - if not perfectly - but that's not how they're meant to be judged as pieces of music.

And arguing that a unremarkable score is "okay" because it fits what's on screen doesn't change the fact it's unremarkable. Nor does it exclude any potential higher quality piece fitting equally well. It's just false justification.
We could go back and forth on this and never agree. There is no 'good music' or 'bad music', just as there is no 'good production design' or 'meh (hate that word btw) production design'... It's subjective, in the eye of the beholder, and while you may say over and over again that DSC has mediocre production design (as if it's fact), I for one absolutely LOVE it... It may not be your intent, but it can come across quite snobbish to say things with this ring: you may like the DSC theme (or designs or whatever), but it really isn't that good.
And I notice that in your arguments you keep bringing up these really old-school examples, like James Bond songs... You keep saying that something has to instantly be catchy or have a great hook to make a good theme... I'm saying that in today's landscape, it's not always a requirement..
And you bring up Star Wars. I guess it's safe to say The Empire Strikes Back is universally regarded as the greatest SW film ever, one of the greatest films of all time even... But do you know that that only happened during the '90..? ESB got mediocre reviews at release, and many fans were unsure what to think... Like a good wine, sometimes films or music has to age, and gets better with time... Same with Michael Jackson's 1992 album Dangerous.
 
My two cents: I like the opening theme so far, and it actually gives me this "warm an fuzzy feeling" and kind of an exitement...which should basically be what it´s intended to be. I like it...but I´m far from loving it. I like how it starts with the first few notes from the TOS intro and ends with the Star Trek Fanfare (btw...is the term "Star Trek Fanfare" in any way offical...or just a fan term...and since when is it used? Who made the term popular?)

My critic points for the theme are:

1. no own hook: Any good piece of music (IMHO) should have a hook...or it becomes "sonic wallpaper"...this theme "borrows" two hooks from other Star Trek Themes...but it lacks its own, original hook.

2. Star Trek Fanfare is not integrated: The Star Trek Fanfare is not really integrated into the piece itself. It`s like its "tagged on" as an afterthought. It basically just happens out of nowhere...and after its done the music just breaks up. It just sounds strange.
 
I did it, my interpretation of the theme..! Hope you can hear the main melody..!

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