Picard Isn't Really An Atheist

[Mojochi]

Despite his well known aversion to being a party to a resurgence of religion on Mintaka 3, where he espouses a lot of philosophies which look down on religiosity itself, Picard, the man himself, does not appear to be an Atheist

While it's true that Star Trek itself veered away from featuring religion on TNG over time, & suggesting or implying the faith based beliefs of its characters, (Besides Worf that is) the groundwork for what those are is pretty apparent, if you want to see it

In Where No One Has Gone Before, upon seeing the living image of his mother, he openly proclaims to a history of having felt that she was still with him, beyond death. During his "Euclidian" dialog with Nagilum (posing as Data) in Where Silence Has Lease, he lays out pretty clearly a belief that their existence must be part of a broader reality.

These are both matters of faith. They're not tenets held by an atheist, who has a lack of belief about gods, or eventual realities of our consciousness beyond death, etc... So, while Picard might have his issues with religion (who among us doesn't?) I can tell you as an atheist, Picard is not one of us.

I don't make that statement with the intention to flame. I'm simply trying to draw attention to what I think is a common misconception about the character. Unlike DS9, TNG gets saddled with an unfair atheistic label, which derives much of its basis on Picard's statements regarding the Mintakans, but when you take it all in context with the rest of his statements, they're not really an indictment of belief. The stigma has been so pronounced that it has been passed down to this day as an unspoken mission statement of the show, that Star Trek is Atheistic, & I can assure you, even the most quoted sources for that misconception, like Picard, aren't.

 

[BillJ]

Picard is agnostic. He simply doesn't know.

 

[Mojochi]

Picard is agnostic. He simply doesn't know.

True, but agnosticism isn't the same position on belief the way theism & atheism are. I'm an agnostic. I don't know anything of it to be true, one way or the other, either, but I'm still an atheist, & from his comments, I don't really think Picard is.

 

[Tosk]

Neither of those examples show that Picard believes in God.

Feeling that there must be more to the universe than we can currently comprehend does not preclude one from being an atheist.

"Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear?"

That doesn't sound like he believes in God.

He mentions the afterlife during his little tête-à-tête with Q in Tapestry...but again, he's not saying he actually believes in it or not. He's simply refuting Q's claim of being God.

 

[Mojochi]

Neither of those examples show that Picard believes in God.

Feeling that there must be more to the universe than we can currently comprehend does not preclude one from being an atheist.

Feeling that his deceased mother is still with him kind of does. It shows that he can't claim to not believe in the supernatural.

Considering the marvelous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that... matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, pattern, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidean or other practical measuring systems, and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.

How is that not a belief in the supernatural? Hell, it almost sounds like intelligent design he's describing (Well not quite)

Am I missing something? Belief that what we are is more than what we can prove we are is a belief in the supernatural, isn' t it? (Granting that Star Trek sort of crashes the walls down on what supernatural is)

 

[BillJ]

That doesn't sound like he believes in God.

It sounds like he doesn't like the idea of sending them down the same road humanity went down.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In Pen Pals he worries about interfering with a "Grand plan of the cosmos". In Tapestry he tells Q "You are NOT God! The universe is not that badly designed!"

It doesn't seem he believes in any specific entity called 'God' but he seems to believe in something greater than the physical universe. Maybe 'Deist' is the most accurate way to describe him.

Let's also make a distinction between hating religion and hating the aspects of religion that cause people to hurt each other or deny science. Those are not the same thing.

 

[Prax]

Gene Roddenberry did a lot of the writing on the final script of "Who Watches The Watchers"

That may be where Picard's hostility in that episode comes from.

 

[Nyotarules]

Does it matter what Picard's religious beliefs are, if he has any?

 

[Tenacity]

Gene Roddenberry did a lot of the writing on the final script of "Who Watches The Watchers"

The episode aired two years prior to Roddenberry's death, was he even capable of doing "a lot of the writing" at that point in his life?

 

[Mojochi]

Let's also make a distinction between hating religion and hating the aspects of religion that cause people to hurt each other or deny science. Those are not the same thing.

Agreed. If I'm to reconcile his cononical disdain in WWTW with the other examples of him having belief, I'd say the origin of his disdain is directed not at the whole of faith or even the tenets of religion themselves, but at the abject mob mentality of blind belief, that is the calling card of most organized institutions of religion, at one time or another in their history. He cringes at the notion they may be subjecting those people to that

Does it matter what Picard's religious beliefs are, if he has any?

Not particularly, only in so much as it applies to people wrongly assigning him to one or another, which in his case, I've seen that they do, because of how veheminently he views the situation in WWTW

Picard & even Star Trek in general have been reeling from a label of being atheistic ever since that scene. I, for one, really think it's quite misplaced, & that's coming from somebody who is an atheist. Personally, I'm fine with him having beliefs, even if I don't share them. It doesn't change the show for me, but in my experience, when someone makes a statement, like he did in that scene, which reflects poorly on religion in any way, they get labeled as atheist by both sides, so to build him up as either a heretic or a champion, respectively.

My point is that he's neither. He's just a guy who maybe has some personal beliefs about stuff, & doesn't share some that might be commonly held by others

 

[Tenacity]

Neither of those examples show that Picard believes in God.

But does sound like Picard has spiritual convictions.

That doesn't sound like he believes in God.

Might be that Picard specifically has a problem with the Mintakans old religious practices, and not religion in general.

Does it matter what Picard's religious beliefs are

It would be interesting to nail down.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It would be interesting to nail down.

Probably waffles depending on who's writing and the needs of the plot.

 

[Prax]

The episode aired two years prior to Roddenberry's death, was he even capable of doing "a lot of the writing" at that point in his life?

Yeah, he really declined in the months leading up to season 5. I heard about his writing in that episode from an interview with Richard Arnold on the Mission Log Podcast.

 

[Mojochi]

Probably waffles depending on who's writing and the needs of the plot.

lol of that I have no doubt, but to be fair most of those characters got revamped over the years

 

[Tosk]

Feeling that his deceased mother is still with him kind of does. It shows that he can't claim to not believe in the supernatural.

It depends on if you take him literally or not. (Which it's hard to considering he says it during a hallucination of sorts.) Everyone I've ever been close to will be with me 'til the end. Keep in mind too, that the episode is about people having their thoughts become reality. Who has need of a supernatural when the real world holds such wonders?

Am I missing something? Belief that what we are is more than what we can prove we are is a belief in the supernatural, isn' t it?

Being an atheist simply means that you don't believe in deities. To my ear, it sounds like Picard doesn't believe in unicorns or fairies, he believes in the science of our amazing universe. But hey, I could be wrong. It's just how I feel about the available evidence. Maybe it's like Sisko, where they try to keep in some science/faith sweet spot so that everyone can project on to them. ("Do you have any gods, Captain Sisko?" "There are things I believe in.")

 

[Amaris]

Despite his well known aversion to being a party to a resurgence of religion on Mintaka 3, where he espouses a lot of philosophies which look down on religiosity itself, Picard, the man himself, does not appear to be an Atheist

While it's true that Star Trek itself veered away from featuring religion on TNG over time, & suggesting or implying the faith based beliefs of its characters, (Besides Worf that is) the groundwork for what those are is pretty apparent, if you want to see it

In Where No One Has Gone Before, upon seeing the living image of his mother, he openly proclaims to a history of having felt that she was still with him, beyond death. During his "Euclidian" dialog with Nagilum (posing as Data) in Where Silence Has Lease, he lays out pretty clearly a belief that their existence must be part of a broader reality.

These are both matters of faith. They're not tenets held by an atheist, who has a lack of belief about gods, or eventual realities of our consciousness beyond death, etc... So, while Picard might have his issues with religion (who among us doesn't?) I can tell you as an atheist, Picard is not one of us.

I don't make that statement with the intention to flame. I'm simply trying to draw attention to what I think is a common misconception about the character. Unlike DS9, TNG gets saddled with an unfair atheistic label, which derives much of its basis on Picard's statements regarding the Mintakans, but when you take it all in context with the rest of his statements, they're not really an indictment of belief. The stigma has been so pronounced that it has been passed down to this day as an unspoken mission statement of the show, that Star Trek is Atheistic, & I can assure you, even the most quoted sources for that misconception, like Picard, aren't.

Well, I'm an atheist, and I still believe there are times when I can feel the presence of my long departed black lab. Granted, it's likely just a feeling. As for being part of a broader reality? I believe we are the universe trying to discover itself, albeit without any kind of "plan" or awareness of that fact, beyond our own. Being an atheist simply means one does not believe in a god or gods. That's it. Picard could be an atheist, and none of what you list as an example would take away from that.

 

[BillJ]

Gene Roddenberry did a lot of the writing on the final script of "Who Watches The Watchers"

From everything I've seen and read over the years, "Datalore" was the last script he rewrote.

 

[Prax]

From everything I've seen and read over the years, "Datalore" was the last script he rewrote.

I heard about his writing in that episode from an interview with Richard Arnold on the Mission Log Podcast.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I heard about his writing in that episode from an interview with Richard Arnold on the Mission Log Podcast.

That episode? Which episode? The one whose name you quoted, "Datalore", or the one you were talking about before, "Who Watches the Watchers"?