A pre-TOS Klingon war. Evidence?

[F. King Daniel]

It was my impression that the aborted war between the Klingons and the Federation seen in "Errand of Mercy" was the first time the superpowers had come into open conflict. But have there been any references in Trek to a previous Klingon/Federation war?

FASA came up with the "Four Years War" between the Federation and Klingons (2194-2198) for their RPG games in the 80's, fanzines have speculated that such a war may have taken place, and now Discovery may be featuring a Klingon/Federation war of their own in 2256 - but am I right that they were added to the history of Trek after the fact?

 

[Kor]

There's nothing to preclude it. In TOS itself, the history of Klingon-Federation relations was left rather vague.

Kor

 

[Timo]

Evidence for conflict in the recent past, not necessarily Klingon, certainly exists. Evidence to the contrary, likewise.

- Kirk is a war veteran, or at least a seasoned a commander in battle, and in the recent (that is, within Kirk's career) past there was a demand for this skill. Or that's what Kirk and Garth seem to agree on in "Whom Gods Destroy".

- Starfleet has a long list of past bellicose grievances with the Klingons, and there never is any mention of conflict having been limited to those specific (and numerous) periods.

- Hostility with the Klingons has been unremitting since the 2220s, even though actual contact with the Klingons is older than that - so there are different levels of intensity in conflict.

- On the other hand, Carol Marcus thinks Starfleet has kept the peace for a century. But there has certainly been conflict within that century, including a brief war with the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy". And it's not as if she would necessarily be saying that there was a failure to keep peace past that century mark - it's just that Starfleet is one century old at that point.

- When similarly told that the Federation has been at peace for a century, the Augment Keniclius refers to the "depredations" of the Romulans, the Klingons and the Kzinti together (and precedes this with "What about the galactic wars?"). The Romulans necessarily had no depredations other than the open and hot war (plus perhaps the preceding antics from ENT), and the Kzinti were said to have gone to open war, too, so we might draw conclusions about the Klingons as well. But the three nasties could all represent different levels of bellicosity, with Klingons competing with their "Errand of Mercy" sortie only.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

My only thought is a vague (maybe false) memory of a line from Errand of Mercy. Something that stated that the peace had been mostly kept with just a cold war between the two. Unfortunately I cant get to the episode at present to be more certain of this impression.
And so when I ran a Cage/ Four Years War era game I interpreted this as a Four year (slightly warmish) cold-War with both sides jockying for power and influence along the border lands between them.

 

[Sir Rhosis]

When did the Battle of Donatu V take place? Believe it was referenced in TTWT.

Sir Rhosis

 

[Ithekro]

The Battle of Donatu V was 23 years before the events of The Trouble with Tribbles according to Spock. So around 2245.

 

[Shawnster]

UN Peacekeepers can use lethal force. Starfleet could be viewed as "keeping the peace" despite having been involved in wars or conflicts.

 

[Ithekro]

Or the peace that was kept was between member worlds. The conflict between Vulcan and Andoria would have been over for over a hundred years by the time of Carol Marcus.

 

[Timo]

Then again, only antics related to Axanar, a hot topic during the careers of Garth and Kirk, allowed Kirk and Spock to become "brothers".

Did Garth, a potential nonhuman (Izarite?), actually serve in the Romulan War era already? Did something Garth did result in Starfleet introducing a special "brothers" policy, allowing male best buddies to practice an intimate relationship without being keelhauled as long as they pretended the intimacy was because they were from the same family? Did Garth kill Kirk's dad and leave Sarek to adopt young Jim?

The more natural assumption would be that actions during a specific stage of Garth's career that overlapped Kirk's, directly tying to the Axanar question apparently around the 2240s, brought Earth and Vulcan closer together well after the UFP was formed. The unity was blamed on "politicians, weaklings, humanitarians and statesmen", but perhaps it hinged equally on the actions of military men at the time? The contrast is implicit there - if humanitarians achieved great things, apparently the people calling them weaklings were trying to achieve opposite things at the time. So, definitely an opening for a great conflict there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

Then again, only antics related to Axanar, a hot topic during the careers of Garth and Kirk, allowed Kirk and Spock to become "brothers".

Did Garth, a potential nonhuman (Izarite?), actually serve in the Romulan War era already? Did something Garth did result in Starfleet introducing a special "brothers" policy, allowing male best buddies to practice an intimate relationship without being keelhauled as long as they pretended the intimacy was because they were from the same family? Did Garth kill Kirk's dad and leave Sarek to adopt young Jim?

The more natural assumption would be that actions during a specific stage of Garth's career that overlapped Kirk's, directly tying to the Axanar question apparently around the 2240s, brought Earth and Vulcan closer together well after the UFP was formed. The unity was blamed on "politicians, weaklings, humanitarians and statesmen", but perhaps it hinged equally on the actions of military men at the time? The contrast is implicit there - if humanitarians achieved great things, apparently the people calling them weaklings were trying to achieve opposite things at the time. So, definitely an opening for a great conflict there.

Timo Saloniemi

I have often thought that the Federation in TOS seems more like a Terran space society loosely allied to a Vulcan space society loosely allied to an Andorian space society etc etc, than the unified Federation of the films, TNG etc.
Mention of the Vulcanian mission in Court martial, the Axanar event increasing friendship between Humans and Vulcans, the ambassadors going to Babel and the fact that, other than Spock, we see very few non Terrans.
I wonder if the Axanar event (what ever it was) acted as the first step to a more unified Federation?
I am just not sure (as FASA) how/if the Klingons were involved. Unless it was a Klingon attack which encouraged the loosely allied members to "hang together" so the Klingons would not make them "assuredly hang seperately" ?

 

[Timo]

The FASA idea of a Klingon attack unifying the Federation is a sound if somewhat obvious one. Their twist that Axanar was a world that basically defected to the Empire is one way to look at it. But what is a "peace mission", and was the "Vulcanian mission" one of those?

I guess all the "Whom Gods Destroy" tidbits could be explained away without invoking a Klingon war. It nevertheless very much looks like Kirk started his career in a time of war against somebody. But perhaps the very fact that Kirk feels his warrior skills are no longer needed should speak against Klingons having been that somebody? After all, the Klingons haven't gone anywhere...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ithekro]

I seem to remember the peace mission that Kirk was on the Axanar was the post-war effort to bring Anaxar back to the Federation and out of the Klingon sphere of influence. The Vulcanian mission could easily have been either part of that or exactly that...the Vulcan lead post-war peace efforts to reduce tensions in the region...to stabilize the border somewhat. It could be guesses that these efforts brought Vulcan and Earth closer together due to their combined efforts to preserve the Federation in the face of Klingon aggression and bring more of the border areas under Federation control. The border was still in dispute, as we would see at Organia and the short war prior to the forced cease fire. This was followed up by the Organia Peace Treaty, the Neutral Zone, the colonization efforts on Sherman's Planet. And the various Cold War influence efforts by both the Klingons and Federation in the region's locals, be they pre-warp civilizations or not. As well as a lot of races for dilithium along the border.

 

[Timo]

While FASA never tackled the Vulcanian mission AFAIK, MW Bonnano's novel Strangers from the Sky stated this mission was human gunboat diplomacy to force Vulcan to contribute to UFP defense - with the sorry result of Vulcan agreeing to field the Intrepid and nothing but the Intrepid, and furthermore that starship gaining the reputation of never firing a single shot in anger. (Shots fired in cold logic might not have counted.)

All in all, fertile grounds for speculation and for DSC plots.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

The FASA idea of a Klingon attack unifying the Federation is a sound if somewhat obvious one. Their twist that Axanar was a world that basically defected to the Empire is one way to look at it. But what is a "peace mission", and was the "Vulcanian mission" one of those?

I guess all the "Whom Gods Destroy" tidbits could be explained away without invoking a Klingon war. It nevertheless very much looks like Kirk started his career in a time of war against somebody. But perhaps the very fact that Kirk feels his warrior skills are no longer needed should speak against Klingons having been that somebody? After all, the Klingons haven't gone anywhere...

Timo Saloniemi

Great debating points, although FASA didn't present the FYW as bringing the Federation closer together. In their version (along with The Final Reflection) the potentially Federation shattering crisis had been some 10 years earlier with the Back to Earth movement, and by the time of the FYW relatonships were stronger than ever before.
And isn't WGD after Errand of Mercy and the Organian enforced peace? Could this be why Kirk no longer sees the need to be solely a warrior? No other race in TOS seems to be a major threat. Even the Roms with their steampowed gigs seem to be more interested in maintaining their (small?) borders than attacking (after that BoT failure).

 

[C57D]

While FASA never tackled the Vulcanian mission AFAIK, MW Bonnano's novel Strangers from the Sky stated this mission was human gunboat diplomacy to force Vulcan to contribute to UFP defense - with the sorry result of Vulcan agreeing to field the Intrepid and nothing but the Intrepid, and furthermore that starship gaining the reputation of never firing a single shot in anger. (Shots fired in cold logic might not have counted.)

All in all, fertile grounds for speculation and for DSC plots.

Timo Saloniemi

Fantastic concept and also useful background for a playing the FASA game around that era.
Maybe closer inter Federation relationships was the Vulcans counter demands?
And maybe all this was the source of some of the prejudice directed at a certain (half) Vulcan(ian) officer? "Allies that don't really contribute to our mutual defence, and yet trying to break up OUR (United Earth) Starfleet and force UE to abide by their rules" mutter mutter groan groan. ...........!!
AND we've even got one on board!!

 

[Timo]

The one area where TOS leaves us especially in the dark is, curiously enough, Starfleet. Kirk is such a self-sufficient hero that we never learn what sort of support he could get from his organization. He never as much as calls for another starship to assist, and thus he never refers to the possibility of Vulcan or Andorian assistance - meaning we can't even prove the opposite, and confidently say that separate Vulcan or Andorian assistance didn't exist because it was a wholly integrated organization.

The one time there is war, Kirk is sidelined at the distant and insignificant (except to the Klingons) Organia, again depriving us of information on how the UFP might divide fighting responsibilities. Is it just Kirk and Spock who fight as brothers, while all other Vulcans stand aside? The Klingons at Organia seem to more or less ignore a Vulcan civilian (they only ignore Kirk because they mistake him for Organian), perhaps suggesting Vulcans don't fight for the UFP even at that late date.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

In the Final Reflection it is stated that some Vulcans voluntarily have the psionic part of their brains amputated so they can observe Klingon society and act as scientific advisors and major-domos. Vulcans seem to be quite neutral as far as Klingons are concerned, which seems strange given their alliance with Humans!

 

[Timo]

I gather Klingons just aren't as speciesist as humans. A Vulcan isn't just a Vulcan: he or she can be a good Vulcan or a bad Vulcan, a trusted servitor or a shady agent or a loathsome enemy...

The Klingons divide and conquer a lot in the novel - they find human allies, too. "Errand of Mercy" isn't exactly in contradiction of that, nor are the other TOS Klingon stories where Klingons certainly like to ally and corrupt.

I wonder if the DSC description of Klingons will have to steer away from that, supposing the Klingons there are all about unity as a species? Probably we get a more faceted view, with Klingon conflict and conflict with Klingons, and with aliens involved in a multitude of ways.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Herbert]

I thought that in Next Gen, Picard makes a reference to the "disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire"
Anyone else remember that?

 

[Albertese]

I thought that in Next Gen, Picard makes a reference to the "disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire"
Anyone else remember that?

That was before Enterprise pooped on the continuity. So to speak. But then, there were Temporal Cold War shenanigans afoot, so, what difference does that make?

--Alex