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I think that Klingons should've stayed as they were in TOS.

nagyvezír

Ensign
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I know it's not realistic for most aliens to look essentially human, but neither is FTL travel or many other things from Star Trek. However, I think that keeping the Klingons as they looked in TOS would've been better, than their transformation into grotesque monsters in the films and series' afterward.


My reasoning is that when the villains look like monsters, the audience dismisses them as monsters and sees them as unquestionably bad. However, if they looked like you or I, it's easier for the audience to identify with them, which makes stories more compelling. I feel the same way about Romulans, they should've stayed more or less identical to Klingons (Sarek played the first Romulan on screen IIRC) instead of adding those triangular forehead bumps.

Thoughts?
 
Exact opposite. In the spirit of Star Trek, we should see monsters that are not monsters and the viewing audience needs to struggle to lose their bias. The Devil in the Dark is a classic story that illustrates this very point. The Klingons are the same. They are the "enemy" and they look monsterous. As a good story unfolds, the audience learns they have depth and, despite their look, they are not monsters. They should not be treated as an enemy.

It's about the viewing audience being confronted with their cultural or racial bias and learning to overcome that bias.

It's about being able to agree or disagree with someone without viewing them as a monster or simply because they look like one.

And then there is the added realism that we're getting more than a human in face paint.

Now, the Klingon culture should have meshed more in later stories with what we saw on TOS, instead of being one-note always about glory and honor and battle.
 
Exact opposite. In the spirit of Star Trek, we should see monsters that are not monsters and the viewing audience needs to struggle to lose their bias. The Devil in the Dark is a classic story that illustrates this very point. The Klingons are the same. They are the "enemy" and they look monsterous. As a good story unfolds, the audience learns they have depth and, despite their look, they are not monsters. They should not be treated as an enemy.

It's about the viewing audience being confronted with their cultural or racial bias and learning to overcome that bias.

It's about being able to agree or disagree with someone without viewing them as a monster or simply because they look like one.

And then there is the added realism that we're getting more than a human in face paint.

Now, the Klingon culture should have meshed more in later stories with what we saw on TOS, instead of being one-note always about glory and honor and battle.


I don't think that the racial-cultural bias angle is appropriate here, there's a big difference between hating another human who is a different colour than you, and having a feeling of revulsion towards something that isn't human, doesn't look human, and worse yet looks like a beast. The former is stupid, the latter is healthy.

The Klingons and Romulans weren't villains, they were simply opponents of the Federation, but the beastly look of the Klingons made it harder to see it that way.


As for Devil in the Dark, we (viewers) felt bad for the Horta the same way we feel bad for a wounded animal, but I don't think that the Horta can be identified with, because we can't identify with something that is nothing like us.
 
The Klingons and Romulans weren't villains, they were simply opponents of the Federation,
They were villains, that was the whole point to introducing them, for the show to have recurring villains.
I feel the same way about Romulans, they should've stayed more or less identical to Klingons (Sarek played the first Romulan on screen IIRC) instead of adding those triangular forehead bumps.
Romulans do not and have never looked identical to Klingons. Indeed, the whole twist in Balance of Terror is that they are identical to Vulcans.
 
I think they should drop the insistence that Discovery is set in the Prime Universe, and just let it be a reboot based on TOS - then it can look, sound and smell however they want and nobody can moan (although of course they still will).

I'd be cool with that. I am also of the mind that while watching Discovery, I am going to be retconning all of the aesthetics in my own head. Klingons "always looked like that" sort of thing. It's suspension of the suspension of disbelief. lol. I really don't care what they look like, I want good story and impressive visuals (regardless of what they look like).

I think aliens need to look alien, and the more so the better. TOS, TNG, VOY, DS9 were all limited by production schedules and money. So slap a couple ridges on a guy and call him an alien (I'm looking at your Bajorans!).

As to treating the aliens any differently, or assuming because they are hideous and grotesque by 21st century human standards, automatically assuming that they are bad guys because they look gnarly and mean..... just look at the Vori vs the Kradin in Voyager's Nemesis - turns out the ugly looking predator dudes were the "good guys" .. from a certain point of view (of course). I enjoy that sort of twist; in fact, that was a damn good episode.
 
just look at the Vori vs the Kradin in Voyager's Nemesis - turns out the ugly looking predator dudes were the "good guys" .. from a certain point of view (of course). I enjoy that sort of twist; in fact, that was a damn good episode.
That the one where Chakotay is stuck with the human-looking folk who talk really weird? The Sweet Hereafter where they can chill with their mothers and sisters or some such? I don't think highly of it.
 
That the one where Chakotay is stuck with the human-looking folk who talk really weird? The Sweet Hereafter where they can chill with their mothers and sisters or some such? I don't think highly of it.

Yes, that one. You have to look past the funky speech, in my mind that was the best the UT could do...perhaps their language was too alien and disjointed to make complete sense of.

I enjoyed that episode more for the mental game played inside Chakotey's mind... What is real? What am I fighting for? Everything I thought I knew was a lie sort of stuff..
 
It's funny, it's been twenty years since that episode aired, and I've only watched it three times: when it first aired, one time I caught it in the syndicated re-runs, and when I got the DVD set.
 
I think they should drop the insistence that Discovery is set in the Prime Universe, and just let it be a reboot based on TOS - then it can look, sound and smell however they want and nobody can moan (although of course they still will).

This. This is exactly what I think they should do. They'll have to eventually anyway, when 2063 comes and goes and we still don't have First Contact.

I would've said, "They'll have to eventually anyway, when World War III doesn't happen," but given what's going on in the news lately... Well, let's just say I'd be very glad to be wrong about what I'm currently thinking.
 
I know it's not realistic for most aliens to look essentially human, but neither is FTL travel or many other things from Star Trek. However, I think that keeping the Klingons as they looked in TOS would've been better, than their transformation into grotesque monsters in the films and series' afterward.


My reasoning is that when the villains look like monsters, the audience dismisses them as monsters and sees them as unquestionably bad. However, if they looked like you or I, it's easier for the audience to identify with them, which makes stories more compelling. I feel the same way about Romulans, they should've stayed more or less identical to Klingons (Sarek played the first Romulan on screen IIRC) instead of adding those triangular forehead bumps.

Thoughts?
The "Elites" of the Halo series were basically inspired by the Xenomorph from the "aliens" franchise. The basic idea is, take a xenomorph, trade its acid blood and funky reproductive system with with a plasma rifle and a powered armor. They have a menacing, predatory appearance that only gets worse in later incarnations as you get to see them in more detail (upper and lower mandibles filled with teeth, etc).

And yet, they make the transition from enemies to allies halfway through the second game and pretty much stay good guys (mostly) throughout the entire rest of the franchise. Arguably, they actually get MORE alien the more their depiction develops and evolves, even getting their own language, their own culture, their own religious styles. By the time you get to Halo 5, The Arbiter is basically a gold-plated monster who fights on your side.

A similar thing happens in Mass Effect, except that the racial dynamics there are all over the place; most of the antagonists are grouped by ideology or organization and not by species, which means your enemies are defined literally by what unfirom they're wearing and NOT by what planet they're from. So you have the six foot Krogan that are basically anthropomorphic snapping turtles; they're huge, they're violent, they're freakishly strong and annoyingly hard to kill, which is also why the Krogan warrior(s) you recruit for YOUR squad are often your most valuable teammates.

And there's the Star Wars universe, which has one of the most diverse galaxies in any film franchise anywhere, and depicts members of various sepcies fighting in various organizations at various times; there, again, what side you're on actually depends more on what emblem you're wearing on your shirt than what species you were born into.


I hate to say this, but Star Trek's (and fandom's) smug self-assessment as being progressive and open-minded is a bit of a self-delusion. Star Trek has ALWAYS been quick to supply racial stereotypes as proxies for personality traits on the assumption that any particular character can ultimately be reduced to the sum of his cultural norms. Compare this with Mass Effect where the "warrior race guy" Krogan (who are so similar to the Klingons that Michael Dorn actually voiced one in Mass Effect 2) can be found working as bouncers, technicians, mercenaries, shipping clerks, pilots, botanists, shamen, farmers, hunters, politicians, taxi drivers, and (in one particularly poignant case), standing on a corner reciting bad poetry at his girlfriend. Yes, they have racial/cultural traits that define alot of their background, but they definitely can't be reduced to that background in any meaningful way. You'll see racist krogan, hungry krogan, bored krogan, krogan that think humans are sexy, krogan that think humans are tasty when sauteed in hot sauce, krogan who just want to settle down and have a couple of hundred kids, and krogan who want to kill everything on a particular planet because the planet is ugly and smells bad.

I would be surprised and impressed if Star Trek managed to depict the Klingons as a vibrant, dynamic civilization with its own layers and dimensions, maybe acting as parallel to our own cultural norms and making us look at ourselves and think "Maybe there's more to us as a society than I really thought about?"
 
I would be surprised and impressed if Star Trek managed to depict the Klingons as a vibrant, dynamic civilization with its own layers and dimensions, maybe acting as parallel to our own cultural norms and making us look at ourselves and think "Maybe there's more to us as a society than I really thought about?"
You will be pleased to know that this has already been done in ONE licensed ST product - an amazing book called "The Final Reflection". Klingon culture, metaphors, a few snippets of history, leisure activities, preferred foods, a few glimpses of language and the assumptions it is built on, why they are driven to conquer, what motivates them, what they desire, what they fear and their morality.

And it manages to hit all the Klingon social and cultural pointers already shown in TOS.

AND it's a rousing story of betrayal, friendship, revenge and a " final reflection"!!

Licensed by Paramount in the early 80's but ignored by the suits when rewritting Klingons for TNG - a great loss imho.
 
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...What's the problem with DSC continuing on the exact same lines already taken by all the previous shows? Klingons have always been about diversity - the producers couldn't agree on a makeup design even within TOS, thus establishing that you couldn't tell a Klingon by looks. Heck, the very fact was a plot point in an episode!

"Balance of Terror" took that to one extremity: the bad guys looked exactly like (a specific set of) the good guys. The treatment of Klingon makeup has done the opposite, so that a bad guy can have arbitrary looks, and the looks themselves have little to do with being a bad guy.

DSC seems eager to spell out the underlying in-universe concept of diverse Klingons co-existing, and more or less peacefully at that (outside times of crisis, it seems). In previous Treks such as TOS, this was merely implicit. Indeed, the "Klingons are us" concept, with or without capitalizing the last two letters of the phrase, was always there, and literally from the beginning in "Errand of Mercy".

IMHO, leaving the Klingons looking like Space Mongols would have undermined the idea that Kor and Kirk are the same man mirrored. Giving the protagonist more mirrors as the show progressed worked fine, including the times the man in the mirror looked more or less Western human (say, Plasus or Chang), and the times a bug-eyed monster looked back (say, Gowron).

Timo Saloniemi
 
I like their TNG-era appearance better. However, I like the rest of the TOS depiction of Klingons far better (as crafty and intelligent villains, instead of a bunch of fighting-and-honour obsessed morons).
 
I like their TNG-era appearance better. However, I like the rest of the TOS depiction of Klingons far better (as crafty and intelligent villains, instead of a bunch of fighting-and-honour obsessed morons).
I personally love both the look of both the TOS and TMP onwards Klingons. But dispise the characters and society of the TNG+ toddler temper tantrum morons. They barely look capable of organising a drunken party in a brewery. Let alone running a starspanning empire!
 
Since Chang was my favorite, I have no problem with the new baldness.................

Who's to say that Klingons are even mammalian? Hair is optional (I say this as a bald man with a beard). Sure the females have breasts, but that doesn't mean they are used the same way as in humans... and yeah, Human/Klingon hybrids are a thing... but who knows what is possible with an alien species.

Unless something was published in canon that I missed.. in which case, nm.
 
You know, I think that may be the one VOYAGER ep I never got around to finishing . . . .

Oh dude.. Greg, the ending is the best part! It makes suffering through the weird speech of the "good guys" worth it at the end when the M. Night Shamylan twist is revealed.
 
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