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Will Discovery promote the natural sciences?

The so scientifically advanced that's indistinguishable from magic is just a rhetorical dodge to avoid explaining something utterly ridiculous in the story. Or doing inane technobable to do the same. Neither one provides any down to earth realism, rather it allows avoiding realism. That's just as well, Star Trek has done pretty good for itself without worrying about realism. Hopefully, it can get that simplistic moralism stick out of its story telling ass.

I can't agree at all - on your first point, with possibly the odd exception, Star Trek has always told stories where any 'mystical' element is portrayed as scientifically based. It may be unknown or it may be technobabbled away, but it it's grounded in the scientific concept of a natural phenomenon. It's not all current day hard science, because it's science fiction by definition, but it is all set up in such a way that you could imagine a scientific explanation for it. Compare it to the 'destiny' stuff on BSG, which is never given a basis in even made up science and is explicitly portrayed as supernatural.
Secondly, I think the 'moralising' is one of the core elements of Star Trek. I'd hate to lose that. You may find it simplistic, but actually some simple messages need portraying sometimes because they haven't been learnt yet, and Trek has done episodes which focused on more grey moral issues, without necessarily presenting a 'right' answer. I'd love more of them.

For me it's not just that trek presents mysticism as having a scientific grounding, it's about how it values the two. Commonly our heroes walk away just as ignorant about the abilities of the likes of Q, Trelane, the prophets, whoever as we are. The advanced science as magic trope clearly does apply.

However (and this is a big however), failing to find the implied scientific explanation for every little mystery does not detract from the way those "magical" beings are de mystified, reduced to fallible agencies which can be dealt with using reason. We may not come away knowing exactly how they manipulate subspace or read minds but we do get the message they are not to be treated as gods.

Starfleet may not be able to reproduce or even explain their exploits but they don't really need to for the show to work. All that is required is that we keep seeing that which at first appears divine shown to be flawed. "Gods" are shown to be fickle, petty, cowardly or false, even if we accept them as being currently superior in some sense the key word is "currently". The Metrons and Q clearly state they foresee humanity surpassing them, Apollo only enjoys his divine status whilst humanity is earth bound and unable to meet him amongst the stars, where he is shown to be not only mortal but painfully vulnerable, not quite a pretender but a showman and braggard.

Conversely V'ger is vastly superior to humanity in terms of technology but it's crucial flaw lies in defining it's purpose in terms of it's maker, seeking out an imagined greater being when the answers (or at least the right questions) lie in human reason, in rationality, in the tendency to ask the universe questions directly rather than expect some higher power to supply those answers.
 
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For me it's not just that trek presents mysticism as having a scientific grounding, it's about how it values the two. Commonly our heroes walk away just as ignorant about the abilities of the likes of Q, Trelane, the prophets, whoever as we are. The advanced science as magic trope clearly does apply.

However (and this is a big however), failing to find the implied scientific explanation for every little mystery does not detract from the way those "magical" beings are de mystified, reduced to fallible agencies which can be dealt with using reason. We may not come away
knowing exactly how they manipulate subspace or read minds but we do get the message they are not to be treated as gods.

Starfleet may not be able to reproduce or even explain their exploits but they don't really need to for the show to work. All that is required is that we keep seeing that which at first appears divine shown to be flawed. "Gods" are shown to be fickle, petty, cowardly or false, even if we accept them as being currently superior in some sense the key word is "currently". The Metrons and Q clearly state they foresee humanity surpassing them, Apollo only enjoys his divine status whilst humanity is earth bound and unable to meet him amongst the stars, where he is shown to be not only mortal but painfully vulnerable, not quite a pretender but a showman and braggard.

Conversely V'ger is vastly superior to humanity in terms of technology but it's crucial flaw lies in defining it's purpose in terms of it's maker, seeking out an imagined greater being when the answers (or at least the right questions) lie in human reason, in rationality, in the tendency to ask the universe questions directly rather than expect some higher power to supply those answers.
Then, there's the Lovecraft approach where whether they are aliens or gods is irrelevant. They are immeasurably powerful and incomprehensibly other and will wipe out humanity with all the thought we would take for wiping out the bath tub mold.
 
Then, there's the Lovecraft approach where whether they are aliens or gods is irrelevant. They are immeasurably powerful and incomprehensibly other and will wipe out humanity with all the thought we would take for wiping out the bath tub mold.

Which in my case is years, can't seem to get rid of the stuff...
 
It's 2017, doesn't everyone by now?

:shifty:

But with Mercury rising and the quarter moon waning the bones predict next year they will find solace in the wisdom of the ancients.

And get rich.

Whilst deciding it's time to take a chance with someone special.
 
An important part of Star Trek is it's acknowledgment of the sciences as being in a position of authority in the solving of problems, and the understanding of the universe. It may not have consistently adhered to science, but it always maintained the primacy of them in attitude.

This is not true of all drama - many reject rationality, in favor of obscuritaniam and mysticism - entertaining purely through emotionalism like a soap opera but not engaging the rational part of entertainment. Star Trek mostly avoids mysticism - something I think we could do with compared to the obsession with religion (BSG) or miracles (Lost) or just very statistically unlikely occurrences fobbed off as chance (Smallville).

Reading the war thread the other day I noticed people saying that two massive influences on the tone of the trailers and visual designs seemed to be Star Trek 2009 and Battlestar Galactica - and like others I'm not really sure these two influences are the best for a Star Trek TV show. I have always found it odd that a show as staunchly positivist as Star Trek ended up with a person known for their mystical/obscuritan stories (JJ Abrams).

Along with some levity/comedy, I hope that Star Trek gives us stories that provoke wonder about the universe.

What are your thoughts?

Well said and I wholeheartedly concur. I have a whole spectrum of issues with Discovery, but if there's going to be a hint of mysticism/spirituality that would be the last straw for me.
 
Trek's obsession with trying to explain its silliness is one thing that bored audiences to ratings death. It's just not important to the audience that Trek explain how the Transporter Floo works they'd rather see two Kirks and how the crew deals with it. That's why Abrams Trek works better than than the last 4 or 5 TV shows.

False. Trek trying to explain its technology and science inspired countless people to study science, many of them went on record, some world renowned scientists have published books about how Star Trek science actually works, look up Lawrence Krauss (I actually attended his lecture this year) There's a prevailing misunderstanding on these boards that Trek technology was "nonsense" and/or "unnecessarily explained" while in reality not only is it not nonsense, in broad hypothetical terms, but it is the very aspect that inspired the audience and made it fall in love with the show. We are the audience.
 
Star Trek has always told stories where any 'mystical' element is portrayed as scientifically based.
in The Return of The Archons, Landru was eventually revealed to be a computer, however in the episode the Lawgivers were able to absorb people using simply hollow tubes without any mechanisms.

Spock wasn't able to understand it because there wasn't any science behind it. The episode incorporated elements of mysticism.
 
It made some small percentage of the audience fall in love with the show - most of us just liked the characters and the stories and the look of the show.
 
It made some small percentage of the audience fall in love with the show
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most of us just liked the characters and the stories and the look of the show.
Enough to be posting on a dedicated forum, on a daily basis, decades after the fact, no less.
I think you actually belong with us fringe dwellers, in my opinion.
 
What I always found strange is how Star Trek, probably at the behest of studio executives, always seems to take the visual language from science fiction that is most anathema to Star Trek. Like for example, say that the show really did end up reflecting the trailers, and being tonally/visually similar to Battlestar Galactica and Star Trek 2009 (which in turn was basically made by the people who made Lost). It's hard to tell tone from a hyperactive trailer edited for 'maximum drama', and the visual style may not reflect the content, but if it did, that would display a poor grasp of the themes of the show.

What shows could possibly be less suited to Star Trek's tone than BSG with it's suicide-laden setting and mystical visions, or Lost with its obscurantism and cloying "everything happens for a reason" tone?

What is actually the most Star Trek like film of the last 10 years? Probably The Martian. I hope Discovery finds its own visual style that is simultaneously ultra-modern, but not beholden to other interpretations of what the future looks like. It has its own well established visual style that merely needs retooling, not throwing out completely. And it can find new imagery of its own.
 
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