Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

[The Wormhole]

Also, it turns out the High Command really DIDN'T survive the reforms and was actually completely disbanded before it ever had a chance to join Starfleet.

And yet, still exists in the 24th century. From Voyager's Infinite Regress:

SEVEN: My name's Maryl. Are you a Vulcan?
TUVOK: Computer, deactivate forcefield. Give me the phaser. (She does, and he deactivates it before handing it to his colleague. Seven hears the voices again. She stands.)
SEVEN: You are not a physician, Commander. The logical course of action would be to take him to the infirmary.
TUVOK: Maryl?
SEVEN: Subaltern Lorot, Vulcan High Command. May I be of assistance?
TUVOK: Yes. Please accompany me to Sickbay.
SEVEN: Certainly. Clearly he was attacked. I suggest we use caution. (voices) PetaQ! You will drown in your own blood.
TUVOK: Keep moving.
(Seven turns to attack him, and he stuns her.)

True, Memory Alpha suggests this Lorot character could have been assimilated in the 22nd century, but I doubt it. Even ignoring the obvious that this wasn't the intent when the episode was written, and indeed when we see representations of the various people Seven is acting out in the episode they appear to be wearing costumes and uniforms that belong in the 24th century, Lorot clearly recognizes Tuvok's uniform and rank insignia, and accepts the idea of Vulcans serving in Starfleet as SOP.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And yet, still exists in the 24th century.

SOMETHING exists in the 24th century, but it's clearly not the same organization T'Pau disbanded. Just as clearly, it isn't part of Starfleet.

What's also interesting is that when Seven switches into a Klingon character, the first thing the Klingon does is attack him. So it's entirely possible that the memories of the assimilated personalities aren't entirely chronological either; the Klingon sees a Starfleet uniform and thinks he's seeing an enemy, the Vulcan remembers being in the VHC hundreds of years after his service ended but also remembers that Federation Starfleet is totally a thing.

Either way, it's clear the Vulcan High Command isn't a branch of Starfleet, even if some PART of it survived the revolution. By the time Starfleet was federalized, their entire fleet would have already stood down and been thoroughly demilitarized by T'Pau's reforms.

 

[Prax]

responding to.

It wasn't just one idealistic starship captain. It was three captains, an engineer, and an Admiral.

Archer, Hernandez, and Forrest do not conform to being "From the Federation Government" and Scotty is from a parallel universe. We're left with Picard. Do you understand what I'm saying?

But it isn't. It's built for scientific exploration and research like any other Starfleet vessel. It's built with the CAPACITY to engage in combat, but that is not its primary function.

I was quoting Tom Paris (as I'm sure Wormhole was as well) who stated "This ship was built for combat performance" And such a statement identifies why it was in fact not unreasonable to send Voyager to track down the Maquis(as opposed to some "task force.") That's all.

Then there's the reasoning given in Caretaker, which was: Voyager was fast, smart, and was both large enough to take on the Maquis, but small and maneuverable enough to operate in the badlands.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Archer, Hernandez, and Forrest do not conform to being "From the Federation Government" and Scotty is from a parallel universe. We're left with Picard.

Who ALSO isn't from the "Federation Government" and therefore isn't the "only" source for the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization.

Even then you're forgetting Riker, who openly agrees with Picard and echoes his sentiments, and Kolrami, who is in a better position to dispute this fact than probably anyone else on the ship but instead replies "Then why am I here?"

You can't really handwave that away as Picard's "idealism." Picard wouldn't have gone along with the simulation AT ALL if it hadn't been for the urgency of the Borg threat, and even then sees "combat proficiency" as just one of many possible tools in how to deal with them. Given that Picard is also the only man in the Federation who really understands the nature of the threat AND is most likely the one who will have to deal with it, he's in a better position to understand Starfleet's ideal response than any man alive. And here he is telling us that "combat skill" is not the ideal solution.

Which actually turned out to be pretty accurate, as Ben Sisko found out the hard way.

I was quoting Tom Paris (as I'm sure Wormhole was as well) who stated "This ship was built for combat performance" And such a statement identifies why it was in fact not unreasonable to send Voyager to track down the Maquis(as opposed to some "task force.") That's all.

And I was quoting Wormhole while pointing out that Voyager was built for MANY things, not just combat performance. The broader point is that Voyager was sent on that mission because one of its own officers was involved in the sting operation and Janeway was directly responsible for the outcome.

 

[BillJ]

Even then you're forgetting Riker, who openly agrees with Picard and echoes his sentiments...

Riker became a butt-licker fairly early on. I'd consider him a hostile witness.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Riker became a butt-licker fairly early on. I'd consider him a hostile witness.

The same cannot be said for Kolrami.

 

[BillJ]

The same cannot be said for Kolrami.

Kolrami's "why am I here?" is a challenge to Picard's "Starfleet isn't the military". In my opinion.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Kolrami's "why am I here?" is a challenge to Picard's "Starfleet isn't the military". In my opinion.

Think about that for a minute. Kolrami doesn't work for Starfleet, technically he's not military either. He's a strategist and a consultant who is basically here to analyze the results of the simulation. So in the broader context the exchange begins with Kolrami asking Picard why he was so resistant to the exercise, and his second question is "What changed your mind?" The answer is "The Borg are scary."

 

[The Wormhole]

What's also interesting is that when Seven switches into a Klingon character, the first thing the Klingon does is attack him. So it's entirely possible that the memories of the assimilated personalities aren't entirely chronological either; the Klingon sees a Starfleet uniform and thinks he's seeing an enemy,

Or attacking someone is just Klingon hello, which as it turns out, it is.

 

[Ithekro]

"This ship was built for combat performance"

I seem to recall that this was in response to the ship's poor acoustic qualities for Kim's musical performances. So there is not much to this statement really.

 

[Prax]

Who ALSO isn't from the "Federation Government" and therefore isn't the "only" source for the claim that Starfleet is not a military organization.

Even then you're forgetting Riker, who openly agrees with Picard and echoes his sentiments, and Kolrami, who is in a better position to dispute this fact than probably anyone else on the ship but instead replies "Then why am I here?"

You can't really handwave that away as Picard's "idealism." Picard wouldn't have gone along with the simulation AT ALL if it hadn't been for the urgency of the Borg threat, and even then sees "combat proficiency" as just one of many possible tools in how to deal with them. Given that Picard is also the only man in the Federation who really understands the nature of the threat AND is most likely the one who will have to deal with it, he's in a better position to understand Starfleet's ideal response than any man alive. And here he is telling us that "combat skill" is not the ideal solution.

Which actually turned out to be pretty accurate, as Ben Sisko found out the hard way.


And I was quoting Wormhole while pointing out that Voyager was built for MANY things, not just combat performance. The broader point is that Voyager was sent on that mission because one of its own officers was involved in the sting operation and Janeway was directly responsible for the outcome.

Meanwhile Starfleet is building a new fleet to combat the Borg. And after this incident Picard fights the Borg a few more times. By saying Picard is not "from" the Federation government, then the answer to Bills question is no one except the aforementioned President. And Picard would not conduct battle drills or war games if there was no threat?! AT ALL? Why? Starfleet does that stuff all the time. Is he some sort of crazy idealist or something?

Maybe so. After all, he worships at the feet of Prime Directive. He looks down on "primitive" cultures, and he gives PR speeches about the Federation's great utopia.

About Voyager. This is going in circles, so I have rewound the thread for you. And then I will drop it.

Argument:

A military organization would not have sent Janeway into the Badlands with a pilot reactivated from a prison.

A military organization would have a task force to deal with the Marquis, not a scientist or whatever Janeway claimed to be.

If they were sending Janeway into the Badlands to conduct a scientific survey, it would have made more sense.

You want to flush out the Marquis, use a ship more suited for combat and Intel gathering, commanded by someone with that type of experience.

Unless you are an incompetent military organization with poor assets.

Yep, the security officer of a science ship doing spy work.

You see, Voyager isn't a "science ship." It's some sort of deep space exploration vessel. We're told its superduper fast, has superduper sensors, is armed to the teeth, can fly in the badlands, can do barrel rolls, and then there's that Paris statement.

I'd say the ship was uniquely suited to fly into fire-space and capture a bunch of Maquis. Are you saying something else? If not, we were never even arguing, and context is great. Consider this dropped.

 

[Ithekro]

Having Tuvok infiltrating the Marquis makes sense since there are other former Starfleet officers in that organization, thus putting someone similar in there makes sense. This is also after Starfleet has run into at least one extremist Vulcan intent on building ancient powerful Vulcan weapons or supplying the local colonists with weapons for unknown logical reasons.

It seems like Janeway had requested Tuvok for her ship, but he was on assignment, than the ship he was on vanished. Voyager is sent to find him. Paris is assigned because he might have better knowledge of where the Marquis might hide their ship should they have run to ground to escape the Cardassians. Otherwise it seems like Starfleet would have left Tuvok on that ship until they broke some Federation laws in Federation space, or they endangered the treaty with the Cardasssians. Then Starfleet would have evidence.

USS Voyager is an explorer, much like the older USS Enterprise under Captain Kirk. Similar size even. Not as much crew, but that is due to better automation, and that the ship had not yet been assigned to a long term mission. A ship like USS Olympic was on an eight year mission when she crashed on her return trip.

 

[Dilandu]

I always wondered how they planned on holding a Federation core world with 25,000 troops?

Yeah, I always considered this ridiculous.

Possible answer - this was only the vanguard of much larger invasion force. With the help of surprize. those 25000 romulans would probably be able to took over most vital installation, and defend them until main Romulan Navy would come.

 

[Ithekro]

Sela said something about entrenching themselves on Vulcan so that it be almost impossible to get them out by the time the Federation realized what the Romulans had done. Remember that the message she did for Spock was suppose to just allow the Vulcan built ships to go all the way to Vulcan without incident with what was suppose to be a reunification peace mission from Romulus. Once there her troops would take over key installations and probably people so that it be very difficult and probably costly to remove the Romulans from Vulcan. Too much collateral damage for the Federation's taste, or so Sela hoped.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Dukat said something similiar in "Civil Defense"

He tells Kira that a Cardassian garrison should be placed bqck on the station.

When she points out that the Federation wouldn't accept an agreement that was accepted with a gun to their head. Dukat responds with something like "It will be hard to remove them once they are here"

As pointed out in other threads and the shows themselves: The Federation hates war as a policy. They will avoid at nearly all costs.

That's why the Maquis even exist.

25000 Romulan soldiers, holding strategic locations. To the Federation that would be a negotiation situation.

While the Vulcans themselves might fight back... The Federation would be looking for a negotiated peace before military actiob

 

[DeimosMasque]

Before military action.

That would give the Romulans more than enough time to capture every strategic point on Vulcan. Especially if the only weapons on Vulcan are thier ritual weapons

 

[Dilandu]

That would give the Romulans more than enough time to capture every strategic point on Vulcan. Especially if the only weapons on Vulcan are thier ritual weapons

Well, they probably have some armed personnel - and it wouldn't probably took long time to raise militia - but Romulans clearly could stall long enough, for their fleet to came and reinforce them. After that, the Federation would be forced either fight a large-scale war on Vulcan - basically bombard their own core world, with enormous collateral damage - or start a negotiations with Romulans about peaceful return of Vulcan. The Romulans probably understood, that they could not hope to took over the core world of Federation, but they clearly could demand a lot in return for the withdrawal of their troops.

In both cases, the damage to Federation prestige is extensive.

 

[Nyotarules]

Well, they probably have some armed personnel - and it wouldn't probably took long time to raise militia - but Romulans clearly could stall long enough, for their fleet to came and reinforce them. After that, the Federation would be forced either fight a large-scale war on Vulcan - basically bombard their own core world, with enormous collateral damage - or start a negotiations with Romulans about peaceful return of Vulcan. The Romulans probably understood, that they could not hope to took over the core world of Federation, but they clearly could demand a lot in return for the withdrawal of their troops.

In both cases, the damage to Federation prestige is extensive.

Having a Romulan held world only 16 light years from Earth would be a stupid move on the Federations 'part. Especially a core world like Vulcan. Chances are the Romulans will unleash the Vulcan beast. With the Borg threat the Federations policy of peace at any price might be overestimated. Even placid Picard got beyond that notion.

I always wondered how they planned on holding a Federation core world with 25,000 troops?

Laughing gas?

 

[Dilandu]

Having a Romulan held world only 16 light years from Earth would be a stupid move on the Federations 'part. Especially a core world like Vulcan. Chances are the Romulans will unleash the Vulcan beast.

Yes, but what Federation could do, if Romulans sucessfully pull that trick & would be able to reinforce their occupation force? Try to retake Vulcan by force? It would require bombardment of captured defense facilities, i.e. massive civilian vulcan casualties. Or try to negotiate a peaceful solution? Either way, Federation lose a lot in therms of prestige; if they try to retake Vulcan, the Romulans would play that as "Federation are willing to bombard their own planets rather than negotiate"! And if Federation would try to negotiate some compromise, the Romulan would claim "you see, Federation have no will to protect even the member worlds!" I.e. lose-lose scenario for Federation, albeit pretty localized.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Probably, of course the problem really is that there is no answer, everyone looks at the show slightly differently, everyone draws from subtly different versions of what constitutes a military.

What I don't get is how invested people seem to get in such a petty question.

The question is a petty one because:

1. Obviously they are a military, except when they're not, based on the needs of the story.
2. It's a semantic argument over what is the definition of "military"?
3. Starfleet isn't real.

QED. I stopped reading the thread after these posts.