CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar

[captainkirk]

I think it helps if a character's greatest strength and their greatest flaw are two sides of the same coin. If they're relentless, make them uncompromising. If they use guile to triumph over their enemies, perhaps they should be manipulative and deceitful with their crew as well. That sort of thing.

That's a good way of looking at it. For example, in STID Kirk's greatest strength is that he will ignore the rules if it's the right thing to do, but he also ends up breaking the rules when he shouldn't have. But I suspect Axanar was never going to have much in the way of character development.

 

[jespah]

Well, isn't that to be expected to a certain degree, given the known qualities of the pre-existing character?

KIRK: No. No, think. Think back to what you were before the accident that sent you to Antos IV. Try.
GARTH: I can't remember. It's almost as if I had died and was reborn.
KIRK: No, I, I can remember. You were the finest student at the Academy, the finest Starship Captain. You were the prototype, the model for the rest of us.

Sadly, I didn't really see that quality in the proposed script, nothing actually brilliant, for example, but if he was something resembling the finest Starship captain, would that be cause for complaint? If anything, if he were sadly lacking, wouldn't that be greater cause for complaint?

And what's with the "Mary Sue" rather than the "Marty Stu" title? Are you suggesting the character was somehow less than manly and more effeminate in some way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Are you suggesting that being female is some sort of flaw?

PS Mary Sue is the original name of the trope.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Are you suggesting that being female is some sort of flaw?

He was suggesting that other people were using it as an insult, not that he was.

PS Mary Sue is the original name of the trope.

It's also common to rename the trope "Gary Stu" or "Marty Stu" when applying it to a male character, as JRTStarlight indicates. In fact, the blogger Kate Stark, referenced earlier, actually points this out in one of her blog entries.

 

[JRTStarlight]

If you're going to make your main character brilliant at something, you need to give them an equally big flaw, otherwise there's nothing likable or interesting about them.

True, but we already know he's headed for one of the biggest falls from grace there is - psychopathic insanity. And despite the suggestion he's somewhat cured at the end of WGD, he'll never be given of a starship again, let alone a position of authority like Fleet Captain or higher.

So, average starship commander - already 1 man in a million - Kirk, about 10 years ahead of the pack (20 in NuTrek). Garth? Reportedly better than even that - before the accident. It's not that I don't agree character flaws are necessary, often even better and more fun and interesting to play than the character's strengths, but this isn't a long series with many episodes, or even a full-length movie, anymore. How much time should one devote to character development here, and how much of that time is needed to point out Garth's flaw, or flaws, before he becomes likable enough to tolerate watching for 30 minutes? I'm just not sure what the "Mary Sue" argument is really looking for in so short a time.

The Ares-class is flawed insofar as it won't be worth much after the war. Too cramped, uncomfortable, and relatively devoid of all the equipment and science labs and crew room to make it a vessel of exploration. Its flaw is despite the enormous investment, it'll likely be mothballed in short order, if for no other reasons than to avoid the suggestions Starfleet is a military organization bent on expansionism.

 

[captainkirk]

It's not that I don't agree character flaws are necessary, often even better and more fun and interesting to play than the character's strengths, but this isn't a long series with many episodes, or even a full-length movie, anymore. How much time should one devote to character development here, and how much of that time is needed to point out Garth's flaw, or flaws, before he becomes likable enough to tolerate watching for 30 minutes? I'm just not sure what the "Mary Sue" argument is really looking for in so short a time.

Running time is irrelevant. Character strength and weakness can be shown and developed in just a few minutes, but I suspect the focus was always supposed to be Garth's awesomeness and opportunities for explosions.

The Ares-class is flawed insofar as it won't be worth much after the war. Too cramped, uncomfortable, and relatively devoid of all the equipment and science labs and crew room to make it a vessel of exploration. Its flaw is despite the enormous investment, it'll likely be mothballed in short order, if for no other reasons than to avoid the suggestions Starfleet is a military organization bent on expansionism.

And this is part of the biggest issue I had with Axanar after I watched Prelude. Way too much emphasis has been put on the ship classes, no one cares about that. Ships aren't dramatic, human stories are. This is part of the reason I think Continues works better than most fan films. Love them or hate them, they've focused on telling stories about people, not space battles and tactics.

 

[MikeH92467]

True, but we already know he's headed for one of the biggest falls from grace there is - psychopathic insanity. And despite the suggestion he's somewhat cured at the end of WGD, he'll never be given of a starship again, let alone a position of authority like Fleet Captain or higher.

But then there's that NV/PII scene were we see a fully rehabilitated LFIM in a position of enough authority to casually override a Star Fleet directive.

 

[Maurice]

You spend the time it takes to make the character interesting, and that often can be indicated very quickly. Indiana Jones for instance, isn't perfect. He screws up. He had a possible inappropriate relationship with a young Marion. He often escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's got a snake phobia. Yes, he's a very two dimensional character, but he's one one dimension up Gaarth, whose singular dimension is his Mary Sueness.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Running time is irrelevant. Character strength and weakness can be shown and developed in just a few minutes, but I suspect the focus was always supposed to be Garth's awesomeness and opportunities for explosions.

Indeed, this is supposed to be what he did and less about the man himself, and even devoting a couple minutes is a lot of time for a short, so for those who put forth the "Mary Sue" complaint, I was just curious what they wanted that would reasonably fit in a short that should be more about what he did there and less about him.

And this is part of the biggest issue I had with Axanar after I watched Prelude. Way too much emphasis has been put on the ship classes, no one cares about that. Ships aren't dramatic, human stories are. This is part of the reason I think Continues works better than most fan films. Love them or hate them, they've focused on telling stories about people, not space battles and tactics.

Plenty of techno-geeks care about the ships, the classes, and can have countless hours of fun with that topic. As for ships not being dramatic, I'd have to respectively disagree. The many times Kirk puts "her" ahead of his own personal needs, and the fact every crewman is supposed to be ready to lay down their life to save the ship (like Spock did) made something like the loss of The Enterprise 1701 in The Search For Spock a breathtaking, highly emotional moment on par with Spock's (albeit temporary) death in the previous film. The U.S.S. Enterprise wasn't just a ship - she was one of the main characters and loved as much as, if not more than, some of the other main cast members' characters.

Too bad other Trek film makers came along and seemed to think they had earned the same sort of feeling of tragic loss when they gutted the latest Enterprise after having introduced it virtually just moments before. True, the loss of Enterprise-D wasn't as compelling or emotionally charged (YMMV), but at least it earned that feeling after being a faithful and loyal ship for 7 seasons.

But I do generally feel the latest batch of movies tend to ignore the more human-centric stories and concentrate more on flash and special effects. I really don't like them that much. But I also realize part of what made Trek great was it was a series, long, episodic, and you had time to flesh stuff out and begin to care about the human stories. That's much harder to do in a relatively short movie-length format - harder still in a shorter fan film.

But then there's that NV/PII scene were we see a fully rehabilitated LFIM in a position of enough authority to casually override a Star Fleet directive.

I am unfamiliar with this. I wonder who would have to answer for it if after reinstating such a man if he went nuts again and killed millions - easily done with a starship? But then some people (writers) do things I don't think would actually happen, just for the sake of their story. I'm not sure what NV/PII is, or if it's Trek canon, but if you got a URL for it, I'll happily go look at it.

You spend the time it takes to make the character interesting, and that often can be indicated very quickly. Indiana Jones for instance, isn't perfect. He screws up. He often escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's got a snake phobia. Yes, he's a very two dimensional character, but he's one dimension up on Garth, whose singular dimension is his Mary Sueness.

I'm not saying it was done well, nor that it couldn't be done better. I'm just wondering what they want and would fit in that time. Another dimension you say? How many minutes did they take to show why Jones was afraid of snakes? Well, maybe that came later. But sure, add some flaw. What might you suggest that would likely endear him to many fans?

 

[MikeH92467]

I am unfamiliar with this. I wonder who would have to answer for it if after reinstating such a man if he went nuts again and killed millions - easily done with a starship? But then some people (writers) do things I don't think would actually happen, just for the sake of their story. I'm not sure what NV/PII is, or if it's Trek canon, but if you got a URL for it, I'll happily go look at it.

Of course it's not "canon". But it does show that your assessment of what happens to Garth after WGD is not the direction LFIM wanted to go. A correction on my original post, Garth was not high enough to override the original order, but he was back in uniform and clearly back on regular duty with his opinions getting great weight from The Boss.

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[Matthew Raymond]

But I do generally feel the latest batch of movies tend to ignore the more human-centric stories and concentrate more on flash and special effects. I really don't like them that much. But I also realize part of what made Trek great was it was a series, long, episodic, and you had time to flesh stuff out and begin to care about the human stories. That's much harder to do in a relatively short movie-length format - harder still in a shorter fan film.

He has blasphemed against the First Sacred Guideline! Burn the witch! Burn him!

 

[JRTStarlight]

Of course it's not "canon". But it does show that your assessment of what happens to Garth after WGD is not the direction LFIM wanted to go. A correction on my original post, Garth was not high enough to override the original order, but he was back in uniform and clearly back on regular duty with his opinions getting great weight from The Boss.

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Sorry I didn't recognize NV/PII but IIRC I tried watching those once and was not impressed and couldn't tolerate the acting, though YMMV. I didn't care much for the whole 9 minutes your offered, but I see Garth is around and in uniform. But with your correction, it doesn't actually contradict my feelings on the matter. They may keep Garth around, but his finger is not on the button, and there's apparently somebody else between him and it to take ultimate responsibility for any suggestions they may take from the former loony. Maybe he has greater access and command authority elsewhere with no oversight, but I didn't see it there.

I did laugh when I saw Arex (alien navigator), though. A bit cheesy looking, but he has always been so, even in TAS.

He has blasphemed against the First Sacred Guideline! Burn the witch! Burn him!

Oh Bloody Hell!
I am not a witch. I am not a witch. I'm not even dressed as one.

 

[Steve Roby]

Maybe I already said this (if so, sorry), but Alec's Garth is a familiar type to Red Dwarf fans. "Garth Rimmer... what a guy!"

(My doctor told me that if I remember to take that thyroid supplement my memory will improve. Well, if I remember, I won't need it, will I?)

 

[Red Shirt]

I finally read it. Mary Sue city, USA (or elsewhere). Egad, everything is measured by how Garth would like something, what he would do, or what would help him out.

A mirror image of Alec Peters.

 

[Richard Baker]

Axanar's Garth seems to be the ultimate fan-boy fantasy play acting- getting to indulge your ego and on someone else's dime. I would not be surprised if he has a scene planned where in the middle of battle there are a number of Orion slave girls caressing his nether regions while he shouts magnificent commands...

 

[feek61]

I would not be surprised if he has a scene planned where in the middle of battle there are a number of Orion slave girls caressing his nether regions while he shouts magnificent commands...

I think Cash Markman added that scene!

 

[Jedi_Master]

You spend the time it takes to make the character interesting, and that often can be indicated very quickly. Indiana Jones for instance, isn't perfect. He screws up. He had a possible inappropriate relationship with a young Marion. He often escapes by the skin of his teeth. He's got a snake phobia. Yes, he's a very two dimensional character, but he's one one dimension up Gaarth, whose singular dimension is his Mary Sueness.

After reading the script, I get the feeling that Alec is a Clive Cussler fan. Dirk Pitt and Garth have some similar traits.

 

[JD]

Plenty of techno-geeks care about the ships, the classes, and can have countless hours of fun with that topic. As for ships not being dramatic, I'd have to respectively disagree. The many times Kirk puts "her" ahead of his own personal needs, and the fact every crewman is supposed to be ready to lay down their life to save the ship (like Spock did) made something like the loss of The Enterprise 1701 in The Search For Spock a breathtaking, highly emotional moment on par with Spock's (albeit temporary) death in the previous film. The U.S.S. Enterprise wasn't just a ship - she was one of the main characters and loved as much as, if not more than, some of the other main cast members' characters.

I don't know if it's true for others, but for myself, most of that still goes back to the characters. Those things are about the characters and their relationship with the ship and it's crew, and how it effects them.
The main reason the ship became so loved was because of the amount of time we saw her, and her crew. But the big thing there was still the crew, and watching them on the ship. If you want people to care about a ship, then either you need to make them care about the people on it, or you need to make it a character with it's own personality, like Andromeda's Romy, Farscape's Moya, or Killjoy's Lucy.

Too bad other Trek film makers came along and seemed to think they had earned the same sort of feeling of tragic loss when they gutted the latest Enterprise after having introduced it virtually just moments before.

Actually, the ship was introduced early in the 2009 movie, and by the time of Beyond had been featured in 2 movies, a video game, and 78 comic book issues, so there was plenty of time for people to get attached to it.

True, the loss of Enterprise-D wasn't as compelling or emotionally charged (YMMV), but at least it earned that feeling after being a faithful and loyal ship for 7 seasons.

I'd have to disagree here, I'd at least put it right up there with the loss of the first Big E, if not more since I've always liked TNG more and we spent a lot more time on that ship than we did on the original.

But I do generally feel the latest batch of movies tend to ignore the more human-centric stories and concentrate more on flash and special effects. I really don't like them that much

. Actually the movies are surprisingly "human-centric", there really is some pretty nice story and development for Kirk and Spock in them.

But I also realize part of what made Trek great was it was a series, long, episodic, and you had time to flesh stuff out and begin to care about the human stories. That's much harder to do in a relatively short movie-length format - harder still in a shorter fan film.

I'll give you this one.

 

[JRTStarlight]

I don't know if it's true for others, but for myself, most of that still goes back to the characters. Those things are about the characters and their relationship with the ship and its crew, and how it affects them.

I'd never say the characters were unimportant in that regard. You need both, of course, and debating it too intently is like arguing which is the more important element in water - oxygen or hydrogen? Twice as many hydrogen atoms, sure, but oxygen out masses that pair by 4 to 1. Telling arguments, indeed. But really, without both, you don't have water at all. Now, instead, just for fun, argue which has more energy - an ounce of antimatter or an ounce of regular matter?

Actually, the ship was introduced early in the 2009 movie, and by the time of Beyond had been featured in 2 movies, a video game, and 78 comic book issues, so there was plenty of time for people to get attached to it.

How many do you think delved into the video game and read all 78 comic books? I didn't do any of that, so I never got attached that way, nor did I wish to rewatch those movies, though I suppose others could have and apparently did. My point remains, though, one should compare the relatively shorter times to the much longer time Enterprise-1701 was around (not just 3 seasons, but nearly two decades) and you can see how the ship is an important part of it on par with the characters, and why some would feel it quite important and not so easy to dismiss.

I'd have to disagree here, I'd at least put it right up there with the loss of the first Big E, if not more since I've always liked TNG more and we spent a lot more time on that ship than we did on the original.

Did you cut your teeth on TNG and seek out TOS afterward? I admit the younger crowd (yeah, I'm probably older) who did that could easily feel the loss of D more keenly. I just feel losing A (retired), B or C, E, or the first Defiant on DS9 can hardly compare to losing 1701. And yeah, D was a loss, but not nearly as keenly felt by me. Of course, YMMV.

Actually the movies are surprisingly "human-centric", there really is some pretty nice story and development for Kirk and Spock in them.

They are not without some of that, though much of it seems forced to me, but there are so many other bad elements in those films that I'm too distracted to care. However, I cannot deny their apparent larger audience appeal to both genders, for example, largely due, IMO, to Kirk's birth (awwwwww), George's sacrifice to save his wife and kid, and the Spock/Uhura romantic entanglement, which are very human-centric.

PhotoTrek

Spoiler

KAPPURRRRRRRRRR!

Frrrrrooooooooooooooosssssssss . . .

Fwooooooooooooo . . .

Man! And I Just Planted All Those
Azaleas In The Arboretum, Too.

Guess I Don't Have To Worry About
Clearing My Browser History Anymore.

Damn It! And I Just Bought That Case Of Scotch.
I Dinna Even Get A Wee Drop Of It.

Well, I Won't Be Able To Impress The Young Ladies
With Her Anymore. I'm Gonna Have To Rely On
Just My Personality Again. Crap!

In My Wildest Dreams, I Never Imagined
Leaving A Bunsen Burner Unattended Could
Do So Much Damage.
I'm Sorry, Guys. My Bad.

Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss . . .

 

[Sgt_G]

Spoiler

"Scotty, how long 'til you have her running again?"

 

[JRTStarlight]

Spoiler

Auch, it'll take a fully equipped orbital space dock and complete construction crew of 500 workers over 2 years to fix that. But you dinna have 2 years, so I'll bang it out for you in a wee little over half a day, if I skip my coffee break.

Why that's astonishing, Scotty. I didn't know you drank coffee.

There's more one might drink than coffee on one's break, suh.

If you skipped the drink, how long then?

When it's this bad, at the very least, Captain, I've got have to 30 minutes.