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Has TNG Aged Well?

I would guess the reason he was the one chosen for DS9 was that Worf was quite popular at the time, one of the few actors willing, and one of the few characters that could make a reasonable transition. I've heard that Dorn was also paid more than any of his DS9 co stars.

Every show has its better and worse actors, experienced and otherwise, background, training, etc. To me, the more natural, higher caliber actors on TNG are.(in no particular order)
~Patrick Stewart (at least, after season 3 or 4)
~John DeLancey anytime
~Likewise Colm Meane-y
~Brent Spiner(I really don't like this guy, at least his stage persona, but I do really like Data. The actor plays him quite well.)
~Jonathan Frakes(Yes, Frakes is actually very good)
~Whoopi Goldberg's acting is very natural. I don't ever feel like I'm watching an actress reading lines in her episodes. A+
~Dwight Schultz. (Very good, both in TNG and Voyager)

The rest are fine.

And the Razzie goes to......

Sirtis? No!
McFadden? No way.

LEVER BURTON

I'm sorry! When I was like 5, he was my hero, being both the guy on Reading Rainbow "Butterfly in the skyyyyyyy" and the guy with the cool visor on TNG.

EDIT: Oh wow, after typing the bit about M. Dorn, I for some reason thought I was in the "Worst TNG actor" thread. Sorry...
 
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It has aged very well. It's difficult for me to be objective, because I enjoy old shows and don't care if they look corny by latest standards, it's all about ideas for me. However, my girlfriend has never seen Star Trek until 2017, I introduced her to The Cage (TOS) and it was too dated for her (she's 27) even though she liked the premise. But after I showed her several TNG episodes, she actually got really into it, to be point of asking if we can watch some Star Trek - great win for me. She asked how old the show was and it surprised her, she thought it was more recent. But I'm being very selective in what episodes I show.

If you like Star Trek for the Sci Fi ideas, then I don't think that it really matters how it looks, that's just a bonus. I love TOS and watch it all the time, even though I was born over two decades after it was cancelled.

The worst one to age, imho, is Voyager, just because how relatively recent it is, yet it looks like it was made in the 80s. What's with the bulky laptops? It's supposed to be the 24th century. I can see the makers of TOS not consulting the few futurists that existed back then, but Voyager's computers looked older than the ones that were actually in use at the same time in the 20th century.

For those who watch ST for action scenes... I think those suck in all the reincarnations, to be honest. OK, the explosions are pretty cool in the reboot movies, but it's hardly the reason to enjoy STAR TREK.

Standards, standards, one-night shtandards. Anything with polish is going to look dated in 5 years, and the more polish is used to hide a bad story only makes the story look or sound even worse as a result. The actual stories and how well the actors translate what's on paper to screen is what truly counts.

I always found "The Cage" to be proto-TNG. It's slower paced in spots but is definitely more intellectual and Shakespeare-in-Space than a lot of Kirk-era TOS. A shame "Cage" didn't get picked up, but history might be a lot different as a result.

I always watch sci-fi for ideas, though by the mid-80s one could see how stagnant it would become, with TNG starting out with some of that stagnant feel but then making a quantum leap in terms of style and reviving the whole genre. What's funny is, back then I belittled it all as "soap opera". Little did I know that, almost 30 years later, TNG's level of soap is nothing compared to today's maudlin escapades that are closer to pure fantasy than anything even remotely sci-fi.

I like the semi-bulk of Voyager's laptops. If nothing else, in the mid-2010s, a lot of people are complaining about today's gear being so anorexic, with poor battery life, easy to break, overheating, and lack independent processing power. They're design issues trying to end run real life physics and engineering issues for the sake of "thin and shiny" or "form over function", which has its place but isn't a one-size-fits-all option. (Don't even ask about how great LED bulbs aren't once you factor in the lack of proper cooling heatsinks, you're likely not going to get 22 years from that bulb, restricted airflow renders any metal useless after a certain point and that bulb's base doesn't allow for much metal on top of everything else, but that's another topic...) Also add in Moore's law and other realities in "tech", it is reasonable to assume that things can only be shrunk so far before realizing real life problems and then making them bigger.

The reboot movies are a lot like "Nemesis" - rehashes, which are better or worse depending on individual aspects. What's even funnier is if you see "The Brady Bunch Movie" from 1995, you'll see the 2009-present movies use the same plot style (regurgitate elements from old tv episodes and you have a shiny new plot, sorta). Then again, DS9 and VOY both rehash TOS and TNG episodes at times as much as TNG rehashed its own on occasion. The only issue is of degree, right down to copy/pasting whole lines of dialogue to hasten the passage of time in the writers' room...?

I think if you separate the majority of the first two seasons of TNG, it has aged incredibly well. The first two seasons have aged poorly not because of low production value, but rather because they are just poorly written and executed. There are some exceptions, of course - "The Neutral Zone" and "Measure Of A Man" being two of the best episodes of Star Trek ever produced.

The later seasons of TNG was pretty revolutionary at the time, though. Especially once you get the sense that the cast really started to gel after some initial rocky relationships, TNG is marvelous. The addition of Guinan gave the series some staying power, and even Wesley evolved into a genuinely interesting character. I think TNG in general is second perhaps only to M*A*S*H in terms of TV shows that have aged wonderfully.



Blame the 90s, not Voyager. I find the 1990s aesthetic to be so ugly and unnecessary. Voyager's interior design is great, but every time I saw someone in a non-Starfleet uniform I just scream "OH MY GOD I HATE THE 90s!!!" In fact... I think it might just be the fashion angle... The shoulder pads, the weird patterns on clothing. DS9 and VOY both had these issues. TNG kind of got around it by starting in the 1980s, and also by sticking to a rather minimalist aesthetic with their interior design and costuming choices. DS9 and VOY were both like "How busy can we make everything look? Add random textures and patterns to every surface of this scene!"

TNG's mid-era (seasons 2-4) have aged the best. 1 is clunky, yet many of its episodes hint at more net potential than 5-7 had, but lost out due to lack of rewrites. imperfect direction, or other issues attributed to that first year. 5 - 7 feel way too forced or are retreads of previously made classics ("Quality of Life" being the fourth or fifth variant of "The Measure of a Man" and is easily the worst redo of that season 2 classic.) Remaking season 1's clunkers might have been a better route to take, IMHO.

On DS9 I disagree; the clothing is so rich with design and color... it must have been a wardrobe designer's dream to get to be so creative. Ditto for set designers, DS9 is so lovely to look at both inside and out.

VOY went back to the monocolor boredom, except they chose dark gray over neutral mid-tone beige. As a result, VOY felt more like a warship as a result of a enormous hotel in outer space.

And yet, for all the complaints of the 1980s and beige, notice how anything to do with home sales are stressing monotone beige (late-80s) or sterile white/steel (80s, 90s) colors. Yuck. Even puke green and vampire red are more lively, and not in bad ways by comparison.

That's the problem with post-TOS Star Trek, to show distant future they take modern level of development and extrapolate it out a few years, so in 1987 they're showing 1992 level of technology. How does that make any sense? Why not reference any number of futurist projections for at least 2050 if they want to remain conservative.

TOS was in an era prior to the microchip's ubiquity. Once the microchip became mass-produced, think 1970s, advances and innovations of pretty much anything and thanks to the microchip (which innovates on the old vacuum tube technology) started to come much more rapidly than anything TOS dreamed of and it's snowballed since. Right down to using millions of microchips, each one operating more than 30 times per second, to run a display terminal instead of a cathode ray tube. Remember, "gurus" like Steve Jobs didn't invent anything. The makers of Star Trek had, forgot to patent (or decided that the ideas were so common that there was nothing to really make such staunch ownership of)... oh, and since nobody wanted to cart around a big box full of heavy and hot vacuum tubes (as a processor or as display mechanism via a CRT)...

That's the only real "problem", sci-fi writers are not able to think 50 years ahead as fast as they're supposed to compared to back then. And that makes absolutely no sense except it makes perfect sense. And shows yet another example of technology evolving faster than humankind is?
 
One aspect of TNG that didn't age well is the format. By that I mean the typical style of giving the main characters all the meatier and majority of the parts, while the secondary characters stay kind of locked in a two dimension mode most of the time.

Another is the plot of the week. It's good to watch and gave us some classics, but when you think about it, serious love stories that are never mentioned again, reset buttons, and never mentioning some things that should be important to the characters--makes the show looks so flat.


Watching TNG reruns on regular TV especially at late night--I like. But doing a specific re-watch or binge watch like Netflix--it feels like it didn't age as well. The format doesn't seem to hold up to it.
 
I agree with @Nightdiamond that what dates TNG nowadays is the EXTREMELY restrictive episodic structure. Nothing is remembered unless it is specifically convenient (and even then it is not always remembered). This definitely feels very dated considering the fact that serialised narratives/more sophisticated characterisation have won out on TV.

I also feel the acting is what dates it, from the female characters in particular (okay maybe Levar Burton isn't so great either, but he doesn't personally bother me). I know acting on TV these days isn't always perfect but damn, there is just no way Marina Sirtis, Denise Crosby or Gates McFadden would have been kept on after the pilot in a modern show. Don't get me wrong, all three have a charm and likeability that can't be denied, but it is definitely what sticks out the most to me.

Nonetheless, I do think TNG holds up quite nicely. As has been said, the themes are generally timeless. I don't find the look particularly dated. I mean it doesn't look like it was produced now, but it definitely still looks good.
 
Art doesn't age poorly. Just, some of it was overly reliant on its time period and was never actually that good in the first place.
 
But you never had a warp core breach or evacuation on the Love Boat haha.

Now that might have been fun
Oh geez, now you have me thinking of Love Boat characters as Enterprise crew members. Captain Stubing as Locutus :D Isaac tending bar and listening. Dr Bricker with flowing red hair. Gopher as Wesley Crusher
 
My full series rewatch has reached season three in recent weeks, and these episodes reaffirm my belief that TNG holds up incredibly well. Many of them are so much better than I remember, some fantastic storytelling and acting.
 
Oh geez, now you have me thinking of Love Boat characters as Enterprise crew members. Captain Stubing as Locutus :D Isaac tending bar and listening. Dr Bricker with flowing red hair. Gopher as Wesley Crusher


I can picture that. I actually can. Isaac is Guinan haha....... works for me lol.

Yes Gopher is Wesley that works too.
 
I agree with @Nightdiamond that what dates TNG nowadays is the EXTREMELY restrictive episodic structure. Nothing is remembered unless it is specifically convenient (and even then it is not always remembered). This definitely feels very dated considering the fact that serialised narratives/more sophisticated characterisation have won out on TV.

I think it's only fair to compare TNG to other more recent shows of the same genre and yet TNG did have a rather unique genre ;). I think it's pretty unusual for a show to combine drama and adventure and have pretty idealized characters and also generally be pretty family-friendly.
 
My issue with serialized storytelling is complicated: I feel as though I enjoy that serialized format in first-run, but I can't rewatch it at all. I liked DS9 a ton, but I've only watched it one time, for example. 24 was one of my favorite shows of all time...but I've never seen any season more than once.

While shows like TOS and TNG are episodic and "dated," I tend to watch them over and over because each story is isolated and can be enjoyed on its own merits without needing to know what came before.
 
My issue with serialized storytelling is complicated: I feel as though I enjoy that serialized format in first-run, but I can't rewatch it at all. I liked DS9 a ton, but I've only watched it one time, for example. 24 was one of my favorite shows of all time...but I've never seen any season more than once.

While shows like TOS and TNG are episodic and "dated," I tend to watch them over and over because each story is isolated and can be enjoyed on its own merits without needing to know what came before.
I just said something very similar in another post. That 10 part thing at the end of DS9...I can only remember the title for one episode(Extreme Measures - the one where Bashir and O'Brien go into Sloan's mind) and I know the overall story of those ten episodes, but it's much a blur.

I was a big fan of The Sopranos when it was on, but I have never gone back and watched it since then and I have no inclination to see any particular episode, nor do I remember any remarkable episode. I'm sure there were. I just don't remember. I was also a big fan of HBO's Rome when it aired; so much so that I bought the DVD sets. I've only gone back and watched them once in ten years! Meanwhile I can watch Star Trek anytime, any episode.

TNG, DS9, and Voyager are serialized procedurals-at least that's what I believe to be the most accurate term. They are not "episodic" like say, TOS. Just watching TNG you'd be surprised just how often it references itself. It happens in almost every episode! Likewise for DS9 & Voyager. Enterprise even more so, from season 1 onward.

Furthermore, I don't see how the format of these shows could possibly be considered "dated" when it is still the most common format to this very day. Just look at the highest rated shows on Network TV(CBS, ABC, Fox, NBC, CW, ION, etc) and their basic cable offshoots (like USA, or FX) and you'll see that while there are some heavily serialized shows starting to pop up, this more traditional format still dominates the airwaves.

Star Trek wasn't on HBO. It wasn't a "Netflix Original" (Whatever that actually means:lol:) TNG was pretty cutting edge, I always thought.

-My 2 cents have been deposited.
 
I just said something very similar in another post. That 10 part thing at the end of DS9...I can only remember the title for one episode(Extreme Measures - the one where Bashir and O'Brien go into Sloan's mind) and I know the overall story of those ten episodes, but it's much a blur.

I was a big fan of The Sopranos when it was on, but I have never gone back and watched it since then and I have no inclination to see any particular episode, nor do I remember any remarkable episode. I'm sure there were. I just don't remember. I was also a big fan of HBO's Rome when it aired; so much so that I bought the DVD sets. I've only gone back and watched them once in ten years! Meanwhile I can watch Star Trek anytime, any episode.

TNG, DS9, and Voyager are serialized procedurals-at least that's what I believe to be the most accurate term. They are not "episodic" like say, TOS. Just watching TNG you'd be surprised just how often it references itself. It happens in almost every episode! Likewise for DS9 & Voyager. Enterprise even more so, from season 1 onward.

Furthermore, I don't see how the format of these shows could possibly be considered "dated" when it is still the most common format to this very day. Just look at the highest rated shows on Network TV(CBS, ABC, Fox, NBC, CW, ION, etc) and their basic cable offshoots (like USA, or FX) and you'll see that while there are some heavily serialized shows starting to pop up, this more traditional format still dominates the airwaves.

Star Trek wasn't on HBO. It wasn't a "Netflix Original" (Whatever that actually means:lol:) TNG was pretty cutting edge, I always thought.

-My 2 cents have been deposited.

Of course TNG was cutting edge at the time, I don't know if anyone can deny that. And personally I still don't think it has aged badly.

But I think television finally has become taken as seriously as film (I much prefer the format to film personally) - and this has happened in large part due to the more artistically free and character-authentic serialised narrative structure that most of the critically-acclaimed shows since, well, The Sopranos, have adopted. Absolutely, Star Trek wasn't on HBO or Netflix! But the shows on CBS, ABC, NBC etc just don't seem that cutting edge in comparison to stuff from HBO, Netflix etc these days. Actually, in more recent years there is a terrified drive from the old mainstream companies to catch up with the quality that was being put out on platforms like HBO and Netflix, lest they be put out of business by being too old-fashioned (hence, more serialised storytelling even on the old networks nowadays).

Naturally, the mainstays of some of the old networks are the procedural dramas, generally crime related shows. But even in the crime genre, we are seeing a rise of the serialised one-crime-per-season narrative rather than the old one-crime-per-episode model (and those tend to be the more critically-acclaimed shows as well). There is obviously still a market for an episodic model and plenty of people still enjoy it! But I think it's hard not to see it as somewhat old-fashioned at this point, unless there is some seriously good character arcing and continuity in there (I think House is a good example of that maybe). I do think TNG has some of this kind of thing but it definitely bugs me that there isn't more of it, more consistently.

I understand a lot of people find being able to dip in and out of episodic shows for re-watch particularly appealing. I agree, it is great to be able to do that. But personally, I like to binge-watch (I'm of that generation I suppose, where binge-watching isn't just a treat, it is the way to watch shows). So I don't mind rewatching an entire season of serialised drama (and have rewatched Sopranos and Rome several times!).

It will be interesting to see how these issues play out in Discovery. I think it is inevitable we will see a more serialised narrative there, even if there are episode-specific adventures, and to me that is a natural reflection of the current television climate. If Discovery were to be as episodic as TNG, I think it would feel very dated.

Although I feel strongly about the merits of serialised narratives, none of this is to say that I'm not delighted by the sense of adventure that comes with revealing a new planet/anomaly/adventure each episode on TNG. And the ability to dip in and out at will!
 
For me, DS9 is about just as old as TNG, yet I find it easier to re- watch. It's hard to explain but TNG is easier for me to watch on TV as reruns, but as a specific re-watch the enthusiasm isn't there.


IMO, TOS was the worse when it came to sharing screen time and developing all the cast. It was mainly Kirk, Spock and McCoy. It was definitely the format of the time to focus mainly on the main characters and leave the secondary ones out. Uhura, Scotty Rand and Chekov were always going to be limited to just saying a lines and just being visible to display the crew.

TNG was definitely better at it, but it was mainly seeing the secondary characters at work, on the job. Picard, Riker and Data got the main stories that fleshed them out, but Geordi, Troi, Crusher and the rest didn't get as much.

Even the movies bare this out, almost all of them focused on Picard and Data mainly. The others seem to be just there to give a report on something and then step back again.

DS9 treated almost all the characters like they were main characters to a certain extent.


The story of the week format was the cutting edge at the time, but when you re-watch or just look closely at the characters, they seem to easily forget what should be life changing events, because they are never mentioned again. And their personalities are completely reset for the next episode or adventure. There's certain two dimensional flatness to it.

DS9 was kind of guilty of the same thing, but more often than not, they made the characters to remember past events. Plus events from a past episode would usually come back in future episodes because they didn't solve the problem automatically, or it didn't just go away.

It gave the show a more 3 dimensional tone to it.
 
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I watched DS9 for the first time since it first aired early last year and the serialized format made it so I couldn't put it down. You always wanted to know what was going to happen next with the developing storylines and relationships. I was heartbroken when I reached the last episode and knew I would know no more about these characters.
 
I just said something very similar in another post. That 10 part thing at the end of DS9...I can only remember the title for one episode(Extreme Measures - the one where Bashir and O'Brien go into Sloan's mind) and I know the overall story of those ten episodes, but it's much a blur.

I was a big fan of The Sopranos when it was on, but I have never gone back and watched it since then and I have no inclination to see any particular episode, nor do I remember any remarkable episode. I'm sure there were. I just don't remember. I was also a big fan of HBO's Rome when it aired; so much so that I bought the DVD sets. I've only gone back and watched them once in ten years! Meanwhile I can watch Star Trek anytime, any episode.

TNG, DS9, and Voyager are serialized procedurals-at least that's what I believe to be the most accurate term. They are not "episodic" like say, TOS. Just watching TNG you'd be surprised just how often it references itself. It happens in almost every episode! Likewise for DS9 & Voyager. Enterprise even more so, from season 1 onward.

Furthermore, I don't see how the format of these shows could possibly be considered "dated" when it is still the most common format to this very day. Just look at the highest rated shows on Network TV(CBS, ABC, Fox, NBC, CW, ION, etc) and their basic cable offshoots (like USA, or FX) and you'll see that while there are some heavily serialized shows starting to pop up, this more traditional format still dominates the airwaves.

Star Trek wasn't on HBO. It wasn't a "Netflix Original" (Whatever that actually means:lol:) TNG was pretty cutting edge, I always thought.

-My 2 cents have been deposited.


It is interesting you say that.

The only procedural I'd love to watch from the beginning again is the original CSI but no box set has the episodes in the same way they were on TV. All the music has been messed up due to rights and shit.
 
Of course TNG was cutting edge at the time, I don't know if anyone can deny that. And personally I still don't think it has aged badly.

Cutting edge? Not at all. Hill Street Blues was miles ahead of anything Star Trek: The Next Generation did, and Hill Street ended four months before Next Generation was even on the air.
 
Cutting edge? Not at all. Hill Street Blues was miles ahead of anything Star Trek: The Next Generation did, and Hill Street ended four months before Next Generation was even on the air.
Well, to be fair, Hill Street Blues was the number one ahead-of-its-time time show on TV then, influencing all the future prestige TV. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to put TNG on that level of cutting edge.

Star Trek may be the 'genre' version of that though, to my knowledge. I don't know or anything comparable outside of grounded dramas/cop shows? Before the 90s, what were the quality sci fi, adventure or fantasy shows? Was anything as sophisticated in storytelling or acting or sets, imagination...etc. or music even (I know the composers were always eternally grateful for the treat of allowing them to work with a live orchestra, something practically unheard of on TV at the time).
I may be wrong of course because late 80s TV is hardly my specialty but I have never heard of anything of the calibre of TNG from that time.
 
Well, to be fair, Hill Street Blues was the number one ahead-of-its-time time show on TV then, influencing all the future prestige TV. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to put TNG on that level of cutting edge.

Star Trek may be the 'genre' version of that though, to my knowledge. I don't know or anything comparable outside of grounded dramas/cop shows? Before the 90s, what were the quality sci fi, adventure or fantasy shows? Was anything as sophisticated in storytelling or acting or sets, imagination...etc. or music even (I know the composers were always eternally grateful for the treat of allowing them to work with a live orchestra, something practically unheard of on TV at the time).
I may be wrong of course because late 80s TV is hardly my specialty but I have never heard of anything of the calibre of TNG from that time.

"Twin Peaks" and "Northern Exposure" I think would rank ahead of "TNG" in terms of being more sophisticated. Maybe "China Beach" but I don't really remember much from that show other than it was basically a modern version of "MASH."

Jason
 
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