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Why is there resistance to the idea of Starfleet being military?

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Except for Baryon sweeps, which apparently Voyager was exempt from (or got off screen at some alien facility)
Maybe Baryon sweeps are more critical to ginormous starships like the Enterprise, or possibly that facility is special in that it can complete the sweep in a really short time thus being a convenient perk to those ships close enough to use it. Voyager could maybe have done their own baryon sweep while they were parked for one of their refits.

EDIT: Plus the Enterprise went for 6 years without one. V'ger only went for 7.

It's a warship built by people who "don't believe in warships."
It's not a warship though, It's an "escort vessel."
 
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Actually, I think in the context of this discussion, that most interesting bit is the last sentence.

[now in "Wardroom"]
ANNOTATION: (DS9's observation lounge, sort of)
SISKO: Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less.
KIRA: I thought Starfleet didn't believe in warships.
SISKO: Desperate times breed desperate measures, Major. Five years ago, Starfleet began exploring the possibility of building a new class of starship. This ship would have no families, no science labs, no luxuries of any kind. It was designed for one purpose only, to fight and defeat the Borg. The Defiant was the prototype, the first ship in what would have been a new Federation battle fleet.

New
Federation battle fleet? That implies there was/is an old one. Which IMO further implies that it's not warships (as arguably any ship armed with anti-ship weaponary is a de facto warship) but "one trick ponies" designed only for combat like the Defiant-class that Starfleet "doesn't believe in".
 
^Strange that the distinction was drawn. Historically, escort vessels are very much warships, and in the last century, with some of the toughest jobs. More than two-thirds of the British navy's casualties in WW2 were in escort vessels.
 
Splitting hairs again?
Not at all, Taking a civilian passenger liner and converting it into a armed auxiliary cruiser mean it is no longer a civilian passenger liner.

Dictionary. Convert, cause to change in form, character, or function.
It's an ocean liner fighting in a war.
No, it was a passenger liner, once converter to a armed auxiliary cruiser (or a raider) it no longer was a civilian passenger liner.

You are wrong.
So your statement "cruise ships are not sent to destroy enemy warships" is factually incorrect:
Actual quote (with spelling error) "passager liners on the other hand (actual passager liners) aren't sent to engage foreign battleships.

In their original configuration of a civilian passenger liner no they wouldn't be deliberately sent into ship to ship combat situation. And why would they? They would be useless in that role.

You are wrong.
 
Except for Baryon sweeps, which apparently Voyager was exempt from (or got off screen at some alien facility)
Starship Mine implies that most starships go much longer without getting Baryon sweeps, the Enterprise apparently travels at warp excessively compared to everyone else in Starfleet. There is a line saying they've done more warp hours in five years than the average ship does in ten.

Now, I know you're thinking, Voyager being stranded in the Delta Quadrant likely put in a good few hours at warp as well, but look throughout the series and you will notice, strangely enough that there are more exterior shots of the ship either at impulse or completely standing still. not to mention in planetary orbit of course than there are of the ship at warp (years ago, someone in the Voyager forum actually ran through the series and proved this to be fact). So it is conceivable that in seven years in the Delta Quadrant, Voyager was never at warp enough to build up baryons.
This ship would have no families, no science labs, no luxuries of any kind. It was designed for one purpose only, to fight and defeat the Borg.
Hmm, even on DS9, in an episode written by military expert Ron Moore no less, we get a warship defined as being a Spartan environment with "no luxuries" at all. This despite the fact that modern day warships are downright luxurious even by the standards of a Galaxy class ship. After all, it's pretty standard for a modern day warship of any size to have multiple recreational lounges for the officers and crew to hang out in off-duty, Starfleet ships seem only to have a mess hall, or Ten-Forward.
 
Starship Mine implies that most starships go much longer without getting Baryon sweeps, the Enterprise apparently travels at warp excessively compared to everyone else in Starfleet. There is a line saying they've done more warp hours in five years than the average ship does in ten.

The dialogue you are referring to goes thus:

PICARD
Are we ready, Mister La Forge?

GEORDI
Almost. I've requested some
additional field diverters for the
computer core and the Bridge and
they haven't been installed yet.

PICARD
(concerned)
Additional units?

GEORDI
We've logged more warp hours in
five years than most ships do in
ten, so our baryon particle levels
are pretty high. I'm a little
worried that when the Remmler
Array starts sweeping the ship it
might have to use a stronger beam
than normal to clear out all the
radiation.

PICARD
(understanding)
And that might overload the field
diverters protecting our key
systems. How long until the new
ones are in place?

GEORDI
I'd say another twenty minutes.

PICARD
Very well.

which to me reads as "five years is the schedule, but as the Ent has done excessive warp usage the treatment will need to be more intense"
 
but look throughout the series and you will notice, strangely enough that there are more exterior shots of the ship either at impulse or completely standing still.
The theory I read is the Voyager was making a series of "dashes."

It would travel at high warp for a time, drop to sublight for maintenance, then go back to high warp.

Voyager would cover more distance than traveling steadily at cruising speed over a given time period, spend less time at warp, and it was ultimately easier on the engines long term..
 
New Federation battle fleet? That implies there was/is an old one.
I don't think so, especially considering the "battle fleet" in question was primarily intended to combat the Borg. Sisko is basically suggesting that Defiant and its sisters would have been their OWN fleet, like some kind of special forces division within Starfleet to deal with the Borg. Indeed, the fact that the Borg turned out to be something of a paper tiger is the whole reason that plan never came to fruition; it turns out that a ship that has no science labs and no ability to [tech] the Borg to death probably wouldn't be all that useful against them.

Which IMO further implies that it's not warships (as arguably any ship armed with anti-ship weaponary is a de facto warship) but "one trick ponies" designed only for combat like the Defiant-class that Starfleet "doesn't believe in".
Strictly speaking, Starfleet does not believe in "ships of war." It's really big on pushing the idea that its weapons are for defensive purposes only, and that their primary method for resolving interstellar conflicts is with words, compromise and reason. They use their weapons to defend themselves, but they their main armament is words.
 
Strictly speaking, Starfleet does not believe in "ships of war." It's really big on pushing the idea that its weapons are for defensive purposes only, and that their primary method for resolving interstellar conflicts is with words, compromise and reason. They use their weapons to defend themselves, but they their main armament is words.

That's "rules of engagement" (illustrated in the titular episode):

WORF: I am aware of it, but I have much on my mind. Ch'Pok was right. I did have something to prove when I took command of the convoy and I did not realise it until I stood there looking down at him, blood trickling from his mouth. In that moment I remember thinking finally he had given me what I really wanted. A reason to attack him. And I had that same feeling when the Klingon ships first attacked. Finally, a chance for vengeance. I should not have accepted the mission.
SISKO: I'm glad you realise that. That was your first mistake. What was your second?
WORF: When the ship decloaked, I should have checked the target before I fired.
SISKO: You're damned right you should've checked. You knew there were civilian ships in the area. You fired at something you hadn't identified. You made a military decision to protect your ship and crew, but you're a Starfleet officer, Worf. We don't put civilians at risk or even potentially at risk to save ourselves. Sometimes that means we lose the battle and sometimes our lives. But if you can't make that choice, then you can't wear that uniform.


It is the duty of Starfleet officers to perserve life, even at the expense of their own lifes (consisent with military and police/security personnel throughout history) and so they should not 'take the initative' and strike offensively (favouring a defensive/not-violent posture). The series Sea Patrol (about the RAN) suggests that their RoE is similar to this - patrol ships must get government approval for non-disabling use of ship's weapons, though this might not apply if there was an immediate threat to the ship) - and British police are famous for (typically) following this approach (and even when they don't, they still mostly do as the subject will have been (identified as) an imminent threat to others.

None of that alters the fact that, in reality, the only thing can go up against a dedicated combatant (warship, fighter) using the same methods is another dedicated combatant. Starfleet vessels may be more "multi-role" than most of their enemies' but that doesn't alter the fact that their weapons and related systems are "warship grade".
 
Even as a warship, Defiant got fitted out for exploration and scientific research duties in both the Gamma Quadrant and the Alpha Quadrant. Even in the middle of a war ("One Little Ship"). The preparation for the Dominion War and possibly the incursion of another Borg cube to Sector 001 is what prompted Starfleet to resume construction of the Defiant-class starships. Though it might have been the declaration of war by the Klingon Empire a year or two earlier that prompted the resumption of Defiant-class construction. We see several in the combined fleet at the very beginning of the Dominion War, though by the next time we see that fleet, only USS Defiant herself seems to be left. We see a pair in used in pursuit of USS Prometheus on Voyager. We see USS Valiant was being used as an advanced elite cadet training ship....though that unit might have been sent out there as punishment for their aid in the attempted coup, and were expected to die fighting the Dominion.

It is noted that the Dominion was the enemy that Starfleet wasn't initially able to out science, out engineer, or out diplomacy. All of Starfleet's usual methods were ineffective against the Dominion. This resulted in war being their "best" option for survival and continued independence from the Dominion.
 
It is the duty of Starfleet officers to perserve life, even at the expense of their own lifes (consisent with military and police/security personnel throughout history)
This is consistent with police and security personnel, but historically this has not actually been the case for militaries.

None of that alters the fact that, in reality, the only thing can go up against a dedicated combatant (warship, fighter) using the same methods is another dedicated combatant.
Normally yes, but Star Trek shows us a level of technology and the widespread availability thereof that makes this no longer the case, where military technology has long since passed the point of diminishing returns where even a massive R&D effort to improve it would only net a very small increase in lethality. This means a dedicated combatant isn't likely to have more powerful weapons than a multirole craft, nor is it likely to have stronger shields or armor. That technology is basically plug-and-play and is widely available to any government who can afford it. So even a group of misfits like the Maquis can basically give larger organizations a run for their money.
 
That's "rules of engagement" (illustrated in the titular episode): It is the duty of Starfleet officers to perserve life, even at the expense of their own lifes (consisent with military and police/security personnel throughout history) and so they should not 'take the initative' and strike offensively (favouring a defensive/not-violent posture). The series Sea Patrol (about the RAN) suggests that their RoE is similar to this - patrol ships must get government approval for non-disabling use of ship's weapons, though this might not apply if there was an immediate threat to the ship) - and British police are famous for (typically) following this approach (and even when they don't, they still mostly do as the subject will have been (identified as) an imminent threat to others.

This is consistent with police and security personnel, but historically this has not actually been the case for militaries.

I assume you mean "not been the case for militaries" as far as restricting attacks on enemies, right? As putting their lives on the line for their own citizens is pretty much inherent of militaries?

None of that alters the fact that, in reality, the only thing can go up against a dedicated combatant (warship, fighter) using the same methods is another dedicated combatant. Starfleet vessels may be more "multi-role" than most of their enemies' but that doesn't alter the fact that their weapons and related systems are "warship grade".

Normally yes, but Star Trek shows us a level of technology and the widespread availability thereof that makes this no longer the case, where military technology has long since passed the point of diminishing returns where even a massive R&D effort to improve it would only net a very small increase in lethality. This means a dedicated combatant isn't likely to have more powerful weapons than a multirole craft, nor is it likely to have stronger shields or armor. That technology is basically plug-and-play and is widely available to any government who can afford it. So even a group of misfits like the Maquis can basically give larger organizations a run for their money.

I guess... although I believe that civilians and even research ships aren't supposed to have "the good stuff" (the Maquis couldn't get their ship-mounted heavy weapons through official Federation channels even before they 'went public' but had to steal them or get them on the black market).
 
Even Earth freighters have plasma or particle beam weapons in the 22nd century. Federation freighters seem to have phasers.
 
I assume you mean "not been the case for militaries" as far as restricting attacks on enemies, right? As putting their lives on the line for their own citizens is pretty much inherent of militaries?
I meant as far as putting the lives of civilians ahead of their own lives. There are some armed forces that construct rules of engagement to at least limit civilian casualties under some circumstances, but not all of them do, or historically have. In modern times, it's actually debatable the extent to which those who CLAIM to avoid civilian casualties actually bother to do so in practice, or for that matter, whether or not they even should. Certainly the concept of "collateral damage" in military science carries with it the implication that civilian deaths are basically just part of the grim business of warfare and that going through the motions of trying to avoid this is more politics than priority.

I guess... although I believe that civilians and even research ships aren't supposed to have "the good stuff"
As Tenacy is (I think) trying to push as an idea, not having "the good stuff" is exactly what makes them research vessels. If you wanted to outfit a research vessel as a combat platform, it's apparently not all that hard to do, but most people have no reason to do that and aren't looking for a fight. Carrying a heavy armament is probably a provocative action that draws more attention than it should, and in most cases probably isn't worth the high costs involved.

(the Maquis couldn't get their ship-mounted heavy weapons through official Federation channels even before they 'went public' but had to steal them or get them on the black market).
While this is true, it's never suggested that the Maquis purchased those weapons illegally. Even Quark was never actually prosecuted for his part in selling weapons to the Maquis, and they paid for them in cash from an interested buyer.

Where they got the money for all of this is anyone's guess, but the thing that's most clear is that BUYING weapons wasn't illegal, just having them in the DMZ.
 
Even Earth freighters have plasma or particle beam weapons in the 22nd century. Federation freighters seem to have phasers.
And Mayweather suggests in "Fortunate Son" that one of the first things freighter captains do when taking to the stars is upgrade their weapons. Of course, the ECS ships can't generally afford the high-grade particle guns their competitors are using, but there's nothing structural about that limitation, it's just a matter of cost (the Nausican pirates, for example, manage to afford them just fine).
 
While this is true, it's never suggested that the Maquis purchased those weapons illegally. Even Quark was never actually prosecuted for his part in selling weapons to the Maquis, and they paid for them in cash from an interested buyer.

Where they got the money for all of this is anyone's guess, but the thing that's most clear is that BUYING weapons wasn't illegal, just having them in the DMZ.

I definately agree on the last part, as far as the former goes I'd argue that them not purchasing them through channels means that - at minimum - doing so, while not necessarily illegal as such - might act as a 'red flag' (similar to buying large quantities of legal substances used to make meth or ANFO would in the RW) without very good explanations.
 
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