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WB's Justice League 2017 movie pre-discussion thread

Christopher said:
That's actually what worries me about Whedon's approach. I saw an interview where he said that what interested him about Batgirl was exploring what "her damage" was that made her want to be like Batman. That's missing the point. The essence of Batgirl is that she chose to do it without being driven by any damage, that it was just the right thing to do.
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I usually wind up disagreeing with you on these sorts of things but on this one I am in total agreement.

I view Batgirl as sort of Batman "lite". If there's any angst to her it comes from her being a copycat/wannabe and always needing to prove herself.

The Huntress is the Batman-esque character with a rape origin story (1989 version at least).
 
As someone who hasn't read many comics recently and never read much DC what exactly is Barbara/Batgirl's story?

Was she Batgirl and then Killing Joke and then Oracle? Is she Batgirl now? Is Killing Joke canon? I assume it is since I know Oracle has been around for a while it seems (going off peripheral stuff and mentions). Were some parts reset at some point?
 
LJones41 said:
I think there is something about "Batman v. Superman" and the Prequel Trilogy that scares the shit out of people. And I don't believe it has anything to do with the quality of the films.
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It's a little offensive to be told that people who don't like a movie are somehow, what, cowardly?

The experience of watching a movie is supposed to be entertaining, not like trying to pass a hazing ritual.
 
Mr. Adventure said:
As someone who hasn't read many comics recently and never read much DC what exactly is Barbara/Batgirl's story?

Was she Batgirl and then Killing Joke and then Oracle? Is she Batgirl now? Is Killing Joke canon? I assume it is since I know Oracle has been around for a while it seems (going off peripheral stuff and mentions). Were some parts reset at some point?
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Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) was introduced in the comics in 1967 at the request of the Batman TV show producers, who wanted to add a Batgirl character to their show. She was initially just going to a costume party, but happened across the abduction of Bruce Wayne and came to his rescue, and she decided she liked it and kept going. She continued as Batgirl for the next couple of decades, eventually becoming a congresswoman and moving to Washington, DC, and she frequently teamed up with Robin.

When DC continuity was rebooted after Crisis on Infinite Earths in the mid-'80s, Barbara was changed from Commissioner Gordon's daughter to his biological niece whom he adopted upon her parents' death. In that continuity, her origin as Batgirl was basically the same, but with the modification she was a huge fan of Batman who decided to become Batgirl after she was turned down for a conventional law enforcement career. She continued as Batgirl for a few years, but I think she'd retired shortly before The Killing Joke happened, which was why Alan Moore was given permission to do what he wanted with her. A few years later, the creators of Suicide Squad brought her back as Oracle -- they really hated what TKJ had done to her and wanted to redeem it, and they succeeded marvelously, making her a terrific character who became an invaluable part of the superhero community (as its computer expert and information broker) as well as a great example of representation for disabled people. The TV characters of Chloe Sullivan on Smallville and Felicity Smoak on Arrow both owe a lot to Oracle.

When the universe was rebooted again with "The New 52" in 2011, the entire post-Crisis history of the Batman family was implausibly crammed down into just five years, and in this version, the events of TKJ did happen and Babs did go from Batgirl to Oracle, but Barbara's paralysis didn't last as long and she was cured with a breakthrough medical treatment, letting her go back to being Batgirl again. (Oh, and I think she's Gordon's real daughter again too.) The current "Rebirth" semi-reboot going on in the comics has been sort of merging elements of post-Crisis and New 52 continuities, so maybe Oracle is a bigger part of Babs's past again.
 
Christopher said:
The current "Rebirth" semi-reboot going on in the comics has been sort of merging elements of post-Crisis and New 52 continuities, so maybe Oracle is a bigger part of Babs's past again.
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The the current BOP title, the new Oracle was a major fan of Babs and co-opted the name. Barbara was not pleased. So Oracle is a pretty big part of the current run.
 
Mr. Adventure said:
As someone who hasn't read many comics recently and never read much DC what exactly is Barbara/Batgirl's story?

Was she Batgirl and then Killing Joke and then Oracle? Is she Batgirl now? Is Killing Joke canon? I assume it is since I know Oracle has been around for a while it seems (going off peripheral stuff and mentions). Were some parts reset at some point?
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You do realize you could've just typed "batgirl" in a google prompt and gotten an immediate answer right? ;)
 
The Lensman said:
You do realize you could've just typed "batgirl" in a google prompt and gotten an immediate answer right? ;)
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I thought about it and looked a little but I figured since it's being discussed and many people here are quite knowledgeable and could get to the root of my questions without having to get into things like Huntress, Cassandra Cain or whatever that pops up. The internet often provides either too short blurbs or way-too-long answers. Multiple comic continuities and retcons don't help.
 
dodge said:
I think everyone would like the Batgirl movie to be about Batgirl, and not Batman/Joker ;)
If you're talking about tone, I'd prefer a middle ground between those two.

I've always loved that Barbara became a hero not because something that suddenly gave her powers or something tragic that happened to her, but simply because it's the right thing to do, and I'd really like that the movie reflect that and be more upbeat.

As far as TKJ, it did treat her character horribly, but Oracle came out of that, which was great, and I wouldn't say that her post-Oracle run was without merit. Violence against women is unfortunately still a huge problem in today's society and having a hero deal with the effects of PTSD and survivor's guilt was an important moment, even if the book was a bit too grim at times.

Batgirl of Burnside is kinda eh... I like some of the ideas behind it, making it more fun and aimed at girls, but the execution has been a bit off. It has a greatly diverse cast of side characters, who unfortunately aren't that interesting and the whole social media angle of it just seems like they're trying too hard to be hip or trendy, or maybe I'm just getting too old for whatever kids like these days.

Love the suit though, they should definitely use that suit. :techman:
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Prefacing this with the fact that I haven't read the Batgirl of Burnside-era title in detail, but I've always thought that like several of the other titles they could have adapted the 'best bits' (Batgirl as a college student, WW as the daughter of Zeus, the more aggressive Superman (who is dating WW)) at least as well by advancing the timeline and using Stephanie, Cassandra Sandsmark, Conner Kent and their contemporaries rather than regressing the older, more established versions that have already been the focus of decades of storylines.
 
Shamrock Holmes said:
Prefacing this with the fact that I haven't read the Batgirl of Burnside-era title in detail, but I've always thought that like several of the other titles they could have adapted the 'best bits' (Batgirl as a college student, WW as the daughter of Zeus, the more aggressive Superman (who is dating WW)) at least as well by advancing the timeline and using Stephanie, Cassandra Sandsmark, Conner Kent and their contemporaries rather than regressing the older, more established versions that have already been the focus of decades of storylines.
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Unlike Wonder Woman and Superman who were rebooted with the start New52, Burnside didn't happen until several year later(with the DCYou thing), and it wasn't even officially a reboot, but a continuation, which made the art style, tone shift and Barbara's personality change particularly jarring.

Not to mention that they de-aged her, but kept the history so that apparently she was Batgirl for several years, then Oracle for several years, then Batgirl again for several years, and now all of that had to happen in the span of maybe 3 years... darn that dastardly Doctor Manhattan and his devilish derailment of timelines. ;)
 
Christopher said:
It's more implicit than overt -- just generally writing her in a younger-skewing way while still presuming all her backstory still exists. Sort of the same thing Marvel did with Spider-Man in Brand New Day.
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I do recall people saying she "looks 12". :lol: But that was about art. Yeah, I guess they were/are trying to write her a a contemporary twenty-something, which seems right for her generation. I guess the forty-something fans didn't like that. :lol:
 
I don't think her age was ever explicitly stated one way or the other, but Burnside has her as college age(and she is in college), while prior to that it was implied(if not outright stated, can't recall) that she's finished college.
 
dodge said:
I don't think her age was ever explicitly stated one way or the other, but Burnside has her as college age(and she is in college), while prior to that it was implied(if not outright stated, can't recall) that she's finished college.
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IIRC, she returned to college to work on/finish an advanced degree.
 
dodge said:
Unlike Wonder Woman and Superman who were rebooted with the start New52, Burnside didn't happen until several year later(with the DCYou thing), and it wasn't even officially a reboot, but a continuation, which made the art style, tone shift and Barbara's personality change particularly jarring.

Not to mention that they de-aged her, but kept the history so that apparently she was Batgirl for several years, then Oracle for several years, then Batgirl again for several years, and now all of that had to happen in the span of maybe 3 years... darn that dastardly Doctor Manhattan and his devilish derailment of timelines. ;)
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That's a fair point, as I noted I haved been following the Batgirl series in detail, so I was mostly refering to the "Back to Batgirl" that started in Batgirl #1 (2011) with her regaining the use of her legs and returning as the "one and only Batgirl" retconning out the popular Cass Cain and Stephanie Brown versions, which I think was a mistake as they could have done the college plot with Steph (who was somewhere between 18 and 22 when she was temporarily retcon'd out and had missed at least a year or two of schooling) who had her own 'post-traumatic stress' issues (her near-death at the hands of Black Mask during WarGames and her survivours' guilt for having the WarGames in the first place).

dodge said:
I don't think her age was ever explicitly stated one way or the other, but Burnside has her as college age(and she is in college), while prior to that it was implied(if not outright stated, can't recall) that she's finished college.
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My main source for pre-Flashpoint info puts Babs at 32-33 during Steph's Batgirl vol 3 (2009-2010) and summarises her history as: Pre-Flashpoint, Barbara was a high school senior (at 16) when she first encountered Batman, graduated a few months later and became Batgirl before the beginning of the next fall semester. Four years later, she has completed a masters degree and is eligible (under the fictional “Knight Dependents’ Act of 1946.”0 to be elected to Congress which - if anything should lead us to place her older not younger during this period. She has on one two-year term before being ousted. Barbara occassionally ventures out as Batgirl for the next year or so before finally deciding to retire (after around eight years on-and-off as Batgirl) shortly before her crippling by Joker. Despite this setback, she returns to the hero community as "Oracle" before the year is out, and spends the next ten years or so aiding the superhero community in general and the Justice League, Bat Family and her own Birds of Prey in particular, mentoring several young (and not so young) heroes in the process until most of this is decanonised by Flashpoint and she returns to the twenty-something Batgirl that she mostly left behind back in 1972 (publishing timeline).
 
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