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Amaris
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True, but the smug self assurance on the part of people who do these things (deny gay people a cake, or the right to be married) is certainly at the root of why they do what they do.
Do people still believe in Hell?
- Thread starter Jayson1
- Start date
I doubt that they'd be so gung-ho about it, if it weren't for their religion. Their religion enables them to act that way.
Yes, people still believe in Hell. In a nutshell, it's the place Lucifer chose to rule rather than being subservient.
It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
It won't be so bad. Han Solo will be there.Yes, people still believe in Hell. In a nutshell, it's the place Lucifer chose to rule rather than being subservient.
It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
Careful what you wish for. There's a lot of hubris in your own position and a barely restrained glee at the prospect of the suffering of others in your remarks. That kind of ugly attitude could backfire on you if you believe you are judged.
Just sayin'.
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Amaris
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Certainly it does. I get the feeling that whether they were Christians, Muslims, Atheists, what-have-you, they'd still be smug and self-righteous. It is very unfortunate that they use their religion as a way to push people down. Generally speaking, an asshole will be an asshole regardless of what religion (or lack thereof) they profess.
When I was a devout Christian, I sought peace, humility, and worked to be kind, and compassionate towards others. I'm an atheist these days, and I still seek peace, humility, and work to be kind, and compassionate, towards others. I could have been Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, etc., doesn't matter, who I am shaped my faith. For some, that happens. There are others who have to be guided by their faith, and if someone who guides them happens to be a bigot, or just hateful in general, that seeps into the message of love, unity, and friendship that most religions teach.
My point is that an asshole who treats other people like they're worthless, or somehow beneath them, can be even worse if they think they have an all-powerful god on their side. It only exacerbates an already bad situation. That said, at the same time, some people do better when they believe that there is an all-powerful god out there watching what they do. Some want that comforting knowledge that they're not alone, and I get that. When I was a devout Christian, I never felt alone, not for one second. Not that I would ever return to the faith, but I do miss that feeling of blessed assurance.
Did he, really? Just poking around the Bible I see references to Lucifer/Satan/The Devil being cast down to Earth, but not to Hell. I'm not sure of the chronology either. Was he cast out right after Creation or will he be cast out in the final battle?Yes, people still believe in Hell. In a nutshell, it's the place Lucifer chose to rule rather than being subservient.
It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
This is worse than DC comics continuity!
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Amaris
Guest
[says anyway]
It's not for me to say, but if you don't believe it exists, you might get a big surprise when you die (or sometime thereafter, depending on interpretation).
Just sayin'.
There are any number of belief systems that might set one up for a big afterlife surprise. For instance, if one were an Evangelical Christian, instead of, say, a Mormon. Or a Muslim.
But it's not for me to say, and just sayin'.
I've known a few people who started off nice, friendly, fun people and got totally fucked over by becoming Christians. All of a sudden super judgemental about other people including friends and relatives who they now saw as doing awful things like living in sin or listening to evil music. Also paranoid about their own actions, belongings, choices.. ugh, what a mess. Replacing "what's sensible and also what do I want to do" with "what does GOD, almighty creator of the universe want me to do" is some heavy shit. Shit people who worry a lot or are perfectionists can run with and really get screwed up about.
I had one friend whose entire language changed, tone of voice etc.. when she got super serious about being a Christian. It was straight out of the parody sites. You couldn't even have a normal conversation trying to parse all the god talk into what she was actually saying. That sucked and suddenly my being a straight forward person given to succinctness was a bad thing because you're supposed flower and flour everything you say with the lord this and the lord that and blessings and.. and no she wasn't in a cult, a very mainstream church with some good people in it doing a lot of local charity work.
So yes, assholes are generally going to be assholes only with religious imprimatur when they find God BUT in my experience the belief system and church culture can make people just plain less nice. Less generous, more freaked out by the world and more likely to find people challenging because they don't fit into the god box. Trying to fit into that box themselves seems to take up an inordinate amount of energy which seems.. self absorbed? But if you do it well you get brownie points which leads to smugness, another thing that seems to blossom in religious soil.
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Amaris
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Indeed. That would be the people who let their faith shape their behavior. I've seen it a few times, too. A dear friend who became saved, and then a Deacon of a church. This man was a firm believer in pre-marital sex, swearing, the bluest kind of blue talk, music, and movies. We always got along because I love a good joke, and I like just saying what I think, and after all of that salvation and promotion into the church, he just couldn't be around me any more. I was a bad influence. 16 years of friendship pushed out of the way.
You know I can't think of a single person I have known who either became a Christian or got really serious about being one where anyone could say "wow they really are a better person, I just love it that they are like this now" with the exception of drug addicts who ended up back on the drugs anyway.
Mostly it's just stick up the ass time.. this is kind of interesting, I've been thinking about a lot of folk I've known over the years and relatives and it's not really a great advertisement.
I can't stand these conversations I end up in with christians where all the * * * footnotes are hanging in the air and you know they are trying hard not to say what they really think. It's so awful.. living in sin is a common topic, this happens allll the time. Talk about some couple and it's just HANGING IN THE AIR above the conversation, how really it's very interesting they bought a house or had a baby or left a job BUT.. { ... living in sin ... } I think they are just praying for the right moment to bring it up, do you think they will get married now that they bought a house or had a baby or left a job? I mean who the fuck cares, this is Australia, people do all those things for decades without bothering with the marriage part.
Or another example, when I went to my Korean relatives wedding a few years back in Korea I could feel this question just sitting there.. squeeeeezing itself into the conversation.. waiting for the right moment.. "so are they.. you know.. are they.. buddhists? or.." it's all about where do I put teacake's relatives, I need to know WHAT BOX to put them in. That happened over and over (yes I do know a lot of church people). And that little intake of breath when I said yes. Ugh. And then, "But there's a lot of Christians there isn't there?", you know, they need a prayer point here, something to hang onto, teacake's heathen relatives COULD convert.
Yes I'm having quite the not succinct rant. Stuff is coming to mind
Anyway ugh.
Mostly it's just stick up the ass time.. this is kind of interesting, I've been thinking about a lot of folk I've known over the years and relatives and it's not really a great advertisement.
I can't stand these conversations I end up in with christians where all the * * * footnotes are hanging in the air and you know they are trying hard not to say what they really think. It's so awful.. living in sin is a common topic, this happens allll the time. Talk about some couple and it's just HANGING IN THE AIR above the conversation, how really it's very interesting they bought a house or had a baby or left a job BUT.. { ... living in sin ... } I think they are just praying for the right moment to bring it up, do you think they will get married now that they bought a house or had a baby or left a job? I mean who the fuck cares, this is Australia, people do all those things for decades without bothering with the marriage part.
Or another example, when I went to my Korean relatives wedding a few years back in Korea I could feel this question just sitting there.. squeeeeezing itself into the conversation.. waiting for the right moment.. "so are they.. you know.. are they.. buddhists? or.." it's all about where do I put teacake's relatives, I need to know WHAT BOX to put them in. That happened over and over (yes I do know a lot of church people). And that little intake of breath when I said yes. Ugh. And then, "But there's a lot of Christians there isn't there?", you know, they need a prayer point here, something to hang onto, teacake's heathen relatives COULD convert.
Yes I'm having quite the not succinct rant. Stuff is coming to mind
Anyway ugh.
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That really sucks. And you're such a respectful person, I can't imagine you trolling or deliberately trying to influence him. I guess he couldn't handle the reminder of who he used to be since that person in his mind is someone to flee from. Conversion stories are often so black and white, not the gradual change of perspective but I WAS A SINNER and now I'm not.
Anyway sorry that happened to you. I drifted away from my friend who changed her whole way of speaking, it just was too weird and I felt the urge to argue with her all the time which I didn't want to do and which was also kind of impossible since she had it set up that I would be arguing with what GOD had said to her
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Amaris
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Not in a million years would I troll him, or try to influence him. It was sad to see it all happen. I was one of the groomsmen at his wedding, but he had to be respectable. He had a duty to the church, and he couldn't cling to "the old ways."
I understand completely, and I'm sorry you had to do that, but I do get it. That's what "the armor of God" thing is all about. By clothing themselves in the Bible, in the Jesus culture, and by making their opinions God's opinions, they become a part of that identity. Criticizing the church means criticizing them. Hell, back when I was still a Christian, I would challenge the very ideas of what God supposedly thought and said. I would openly criticize an action made in the Old Testament as awful, and bloodthirsty, to which fellow Christians would reply "Oh, don't say that. God has his reasons." It's like they were terrified, because they were. I didn't care, I mean, what's the worst God was going to do, come down and wrestle me? I'd have taken him on. If I couldn't ask questions, what was the point? If I couldn't push the envelope, why bother growing? Oh, I know all about the "spiritual growth" I hear about and have seen in modern Evangelical churches. It's the same damned sermons repeated ad nauseam and everyone just pretends they're oblivious enough not to know that hating your neighbor is wrong.Anyway sorry that happened to you. I drifted away from my friend who changed her whole way of speaking, it just was too weird and I felt the urge to argue with her all the time which I didn't want to do and which was also kind of impossible since she had it set up that I would be arguing with what GOD had said to her
One of the best books I ever read was when I was 12 years old, and one that helped shape my outlook on God was Are You Running With Me, Jesus? by Malcolm Boyd. It was a devotional, but it was full of actual issues. It was about sex, violence, the bomb, social and political upheaval, it actually tried to address real problems people faced every day. It wasn't some milquetoast entreaty that pretended to ask questions just so it was participating. Everyone knows that person, whether it be at work or in school. They would always ask a really dull question just so they could show teacher/boss they were paying attention, the brown nosing little shits. "Teacher, what is the best way for us to behave and do right for you?" Yeah, ask her that you little twit. We know at recess you'll be smacking Timmy's head up against the basketball pole again. We're not fooled, you crud monkey.
Little bastards.
Where was I?
Oh yeah, there are always those who shape their lives around their newfound faith. I have no problem with someone who is new to the faith wanting to use it immediately to help others, to be kind and generous, to share love and compassion with others, but then you get the pork bellied sneech who can't wait to condemn his former friends because they won't go with him to his horribly boring, and ultra-judgmental church where you get yelled at for 90 minutes while the preacher overpronounces his consonants-uh, and-uh tells you-ah, that GAWD-uh, is gonna send you ta Hell-uh, if ya don't drop to your knees-uh, and praise Him-uh! Ah said-uh praise Him-uh! Every knee shall bow-uh, and ev'ry tongue, it shall confess-uh!
I think we were starting to see that form of Christianity begin to die a death it should have died decades ago. We were seeing it, but now there is a resurgence due to the fear of irrelevance. I'm not going anywhere particular with this, it's just something that bugs the hell out of me. These people want power, they want influence, and they want to lord it over you. It's not about love thy neighbor, it's about taking advantage of thy neighbor, and bringing that neighbor's trust under your direct control. It's vile, and it's a diseased arm of the Christian faith that needs to die, and I cannot wait to see it die, because if it doesn't die, it will poison the rest of the body, and I do not wish to see that happen. Too many of my friends deserve better than that.
Everything teacake said is true.
That's exactly what happened to me when I joined Paradise AOG back in 1995/6 and boy did I get sucked in.... I feel truly sad now reading your post that's what happened to me. I mean that's how I changed as well during that period. Now looking back it just frightens me that I got so brainwashed.
That's exactly what happened to me when I joined Paradise AOG back in 1995/6 and boy did I get sucked in.... I feel truly sad now reading your post that's what happened to me. I mean that's how I changed as well during that period. Now looking back it just frightens me that I got so brainwashed.
It just seems so pointless though @Tetragrammaton Invictus doesn't it? I mean there's some great stuff in the new testament Jesus said, like actual challenging stuff that can flip upside down our notions of what is important in the world, what makes us happy, how to treat people.. and by challenging I mean it's not a greeting card. If a church made that their focus both in outreach work and in people's goals for personal growth it would be a lifelong work of goodness. Jesus was constantly saying "but.." to the boxes people tried to put him, themselves and others in yet church life seems to be all about defining a god box, fitting ourselves into it no matter what the cost and alternating between handwringing and hatred over those that have no interest in squashing themselves into that box as well.
I think people want community and identity and church culture sucks people in and keeps them there with that. It gets more and more elaborate in order to keep everyone invested in the church as a culture. Just saying hey guys, how about we love our neighbour and talk about how that's going isn't enough.. well one thing is there is no actual loving your neighbour without an agenda. Not sure Jesus told people to go be nice to folk with an agenda in mind though.
Also re brainwashing: religion fires off your serotonin <---not exact science lol, it can really make you feel good. It's self medication. Don't be too hard on yourself, it can readily seem confirmed via your feelings because of brain chem highs.
I think people want community and identity and church culture sucks people in and keeps them there with that. It gets more and more elaborate in order to keep everyone invested in the church as a culture. Just saying hey guys, how about we love our neighbour and talk about how that's going isn't enough.. well one thing is there is no actual loving your neighbour without an agenda. Not sure Jesus told people to go be nice to folk with an agenda in mind though.
Also re brainwashing: religion fires off your serotonin <---not exact science lol, it can really make you feel good. It's self medication. Don't be too hard on yourself, it can readily seem confirmed via your feelings because of brain chem highs.
Oh for sure. Thanks.......
Also endorphines.... A lot of the religious experience unleashes a torrent of endorphines that gives you an internal high.
Speaking in tongues, not spiritual at all....... I could do that and, do it at the drop of a hat. You get sucked into so much stuff But the internal highs you get during worship becomes a drug.
What drove me away and snapped me out of all this was the actual change in church culture. Towards 1999/2000 there was a radical change in tone from what seemed good and seemed right to a focus on self and self attainment. The prosperity doctrine seemed to take over. Also a few church scandals, and their focus on things like sex in marriage and stuff.
Oh and to top that off things like "christian fashion parades" it's a thing.....
It drove me out of my funk and I left, and have felt much better ever since. That's not what JC taught us the stuff they preached, nothing like it at all.
But thank you for your post teacake it was interesting.
Hey how did you turn my name into a link?
You put an At sign (@) in front of the user name of someone you want to call to a thread, and it shows up in their notifications. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times, but once.
Oh that's cool didn't know that.
I hate hearing all the horror stories of encounters with Christians, but I know they are true because I use to be that judgmental asshole.
I still am a Christian, but the main thing that it has taught me is compassion above all.
Thank you @Coloratura and @teacake for sharing.
I still am a Christian, but the main thing that it has taught me is compassion above all.
Thank you @Coloratura and @teacake for sharing.
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