What did Kirk say to Spock?

[JonnyQuest037]

On the same topic, why did Valeris head to sickbay with a phaser? Wouldn't she have expected to find a full medical staff there, not to mention the court reporter, and possibly other senior officers? And shouldn't she have known something was up when the whole place was dark? Or did she know she was caught and was willing to kill Burke and Samno in front of everyone?

From the darkened sickbay and the crew sleeping when the shipboard announcement came through, I think it's safe to assume that these scenes took place somewhere during the Enterprise's evening shift. Valeris was probably assuming that there was only a skeleton crew on duty in sickbay at the time, and was hoping to discretely finish off Burke and Samno (another phaser on stun at close range) and make her getaway before anyone found out.

This is pure supposition, of course, but it makes sense to me.

The novelization, for better or worse, "handwaves" this a bit by having Valeris, in her mind, consent to Spock.

I've always hated that, mainly because it lets Spock off the hook. I like the moral ambiguity of Spock forcing a mind meld on his protégé in the name of a greater good. If Spock asks permission to Valeris (and she grants it, against all logic), all of that is gone. I have a similar reaction to the novelization "justifying" Kirk's prejudice against Klingons by having Carol Marcus be caught in a Klingon attack shortly before the events of the film -- As if 25-30 years of fighting Klingons and them being responsible for the death of his son wasn't reason enough for him to hate them!

It seem to me that J.M. Dillard didn't like the script of STVI very much and was working hard to bring it more in line with her conception of the ST Universe. But I thought that most of her additions and expansions went against the spirit of the script. Since I liked the movie as it was, I consequently didn't like the STVI novelization very much.

 

[DonIago]

At the same time though, the attack on Carol helped with the "WTH, Kirk is a racist now???" argument. Assuming one felt any help was needed.

 

[Timo]

Trapping Valeris purely to let her incriminate herself would be foolish and unnecessary twiddling. Kirk is God: he can basically execute Valeris on the spot and examine her potential guilt later if ever. What Kirk needs is the saboteur off his back. But what are his real options?

If he knows that Valeris dunnit:

1) Just catch the known saboteur. This leaves her potential accomplices at large, especially if she's killed in the process.
2) Catch the saboteur and interrogate her. This requires catching her alive. But intricate traps aren't required - Kirk can always simply quick-draw his phaser and stun the saboteur on the bridge.

If he doesn't:

1) Catch somebody, and wait to see what happens. But quite possibly nothing does, and the real saboteurs bide their time until it's too late for Kirk.
2) Create the trap. But will anybody fall for something as clumsy as what we saw?

That Valeris did fall for the trap is sort of implied, as she expresses surprise at getting caught. But her options are limited to risking springing the trap, and committing (extended) suicide outright (phasering the warp core, say), and we learn that she doesn't have the mental discipline to commit the latter act even though even Spock considers it the only logical one. Everything is at stake for the conspirators now, and still Valeris chooses to fold. So basically we could see her essentially surrendering by going to sickbay, a logical act considering her soon-to-be-revealed priorities.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

At the same time though, the attack on Carol helped with the "WTH, Kirk is a racist now???" argument. Assuming one felt any help was needed.

Which I didn't.

 

[DonIago]

But many did.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

That Valeris did fall for the trap is sort of implied, as she expresses surprise at getting caught.

She may have reasoned that it would be too obvious and figured Kirk was smarter than pulling such a simple ploy, though not smart enough to solve everything. She gambled on the illogic of Humans and lost.

The novelization, for better or worse, "handwaves" this a bit by having Valeris, in her mind, consent to Spock.

But still suffering because she knows she's going down, not because he's forcing her to reveal the truth?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

But many did.

Yeah, but those people are WRONG.

 

[DonIago]

^^I don't recall the exact details of how the mind meld unfolds in the novelization, but IIRC she's initially resistant, which is what causes the pained reactions, but once she consents to it it's no longer painful.

This is -somewhat- how things proceed in the movie, where...and I apologize for phrasing here...once Spock penetrates Valeris's mind she stops making any agonized sounds as Spock (and her) recite the names.

 

[Timo]

The thing established about melds from "Dagger of the Mind" on is that the two parties involved are sharing. I'm sure there are rapists out there who immensely enjoy great pain in their penises when they commit their crime, but are there any who also immensely enjoy feeling violated, humiliated and scared?

Comparing Spock's actions to rape seems to be ignoring the fact that Spock would automatically be a victim, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Except that it's also been shown that mind melds aren't always consensual. For instance, in "Mirror, Mirror".

 

[Timo]

Most nonconsensual things aren't rape. I'm just pointing out an additional reason not to liken Spock's actions to the sort of activity the law today considers rape. Either here or in "Mirror, Mirror", that is - if hurting your victim is necessary, Spock if anybody would be duty-bound to endure that pain himself.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I don't think the "it also hurt the rapist so it's not really rape" argument will fly very far if it's ever brought up in court. Rape is a matter of intent.

 

[Timo]

And it can plausibly be argued that there can't be intent in said circumstances. Intent to do assorted other things, yes, but not rape, with its well-known characteristics.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

"Oh, the rape was only a side-effect of what I really wanted to do?" Seriously?

NB: I'm not saying that a nonconsensual mind-meld constitutes rape. Rape typically involves a sexual component. I do, however, think an NCMM would have similar characteristics and potentially effects.

 

[Timo]

Stabbing does, too. That is no reason to go all sex maniac and start glorifying the action with titillating terminology, or whatever motivates the surprisingly large "rapist party" hereabouts. And again, while any connection to rape is already flimsy to the extreme, the fundamental characteristics of melding are an important further distinguishing step, setting NCMM (I love it when an acronym comes together!) apart not only from rape but from stabbing and the like, too.

Never mind victimless crimes, here we have the mutual victimization crime. What else falls in that category besides suicide bombing?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I don't think the fact that somone might suffer in the course of committing a non-consensual violation of another's mind should be used to exonerate the perpetrator, and I hope that's not what you're suggesting.

For all we know the perpetrator's a sadist who actually does enjoy what they're doing.

 

[Timo]

Which is the same as postulating that it (for any value of "it") was okay because the victim may have been a masochist.

What is happening here is a whole separate category of violation, is all. May be illegal. May be legal and what you get medals for. May be both at the same time, depending on what sort of costume you wear. But ain't all that close to rape.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Vger23]

I know exactly what Kirk said to Spock:

"Hey...I have this convoluted idea that if we make an intercom announcement that the two assassins are still alive, the remaining conspirator will be absolutely STUPID enough to show up in sickbay with a phaser, somehow thinking that these key witnesses to one of the greatest integalactic conspiracies of all time, will just be laying around, unguarded and not under any security...and we'll be able to catch them. And the audience will be so caught up in wanting to like this, our last film, that they won't notice how dumb and contrived this is. It's a chance....!"

 

[at Quark's]

Hmmm, let's see.

Kirk: 'Why did the chicken cross the road?'
Spock: 'It's possible'.

Perhaps not the very best fit, but I can't rule it out either.

 

[Garth Rockett]

I missed that last line of dialog from Kirk about his quarters. I always miss that bit of the scene .... OK so he did know, or at least suspect.

Kirk's suspicion is also set up just before they find the bodies:

SPOCK: I have reason to believe that Gorkon's murderers are aboard this vessel.
KIRK: I have a thought about that.