Do people still believe in Hell?

[Refuge]

If you accept that your path is true, your God is the true God, and that God is just and merciful, then you also accept that people going to hell for not choosing the correct path out of millions of paths to be fair and equitable. You accept someone's eternal damnation as just and righteous, as acceptable punishment for not following your beliefs. This is the price of believing in this ideology where hell exists.

Can I ask this? You don't believe in it, so why does it matter to you that someone else does? Is that not for the someone else to reconcile?

I think there is an investment non-religious people have in religious people. It goes along the lines of.. if so and so was a real Christian then so and so would be like this.. insert non-believers examination of what a real Christian should be. Why do you care?

I will answer your question though. I don't want eternal damnation for others but I think it exists.

 

[Amaris]

Can I ask this? You don't believe in it, so why does it matter to you that someone else does? Is that not for the someone else to reconcile?

I think there is an investment non-religious people have in religious people. It goes along the lines of.. if so and so was a real Christian then so and so would be like this.. insert non-believers examination of what a real Christian should be. Why do you care?

Because 70% of the United States professes to a belief in the Christian God. There are those among them who are fire and brimstone Christians, who want to create policies that tear away at the sciences, and that erode religious freedom. Evangelicals, in particular, wish to remove protections on global climate change policies because they believe the earth is in God's control, and that we'll be fine. It is imperative I stay cognizant of that massive majority of society. Only a fool would be in the same room as a hungry lion and not keep at least one eye on it at all times.

I will answer your question though. I don't want eternal damnation for others but I think it exists.

Why would you worship a god who considers it okay to condemn human beings to eternal damnation?

 

[Refuge]

Because 70% of the United States professes to a belief in the Christian God. There are those among them who are fire and brimstone Christians, who want to create policies that tear away at the sciences, and that erode religious freedom. Evangelicals, in particular, wish to remove protections on global climate change policies because they believe the earth is in God's control, and that we'll be fine. It is imperative I stay cognizant of that massive majority of society. Only a fool would be in the same room as a hungry lion and not keep at least one eye on it at all times.


Why would you worship a god who considers it okay to condemn human beings to eternal damnation?

Do you think this is getting a little circular? I worship what I believe. It's always been there for me and I can't pretend it away.

70% is a lot. I'm not so sure I would want to tear away sciences that is silly.. no wonder I struck nerves here. And believe it or not I'm okay with people who don't believe, even if they then turn around and say I'm awful for not wanting the non-believers salvation when that is not what I do want.

Just a thought though if it is 70% maybe .. don't get defensive.. but maybe their influence should be not entirely damned? I realize a lot of our laws and codes are ethic based but many are religious based too. That was their foundation. Religious morals and principles are not all bad! It's like Christmas we all get to share that even when many don't go for the Christian story.

 

[Amaris]

Do you think this is getting a little circular? I worship what I believe. It's always been there for me and I can't pretend it away.

For you it may be circular, for me it is simply a question. Believing it because it's been there is fine if that's what you want to believe, but you make it sound as if you put no thought into it whatsoever, as if you don't question why there should be a hell because you just don't bother to ask.

70% is a lot. I'm not so sure I would want to tear away sciences that is silly.. no wonder I struck nerves here. And believe it or not I'm okay with people who don't believe, even if they then turn around and say I'm awful for not wanting the non-believers salvation when that is not what I do want.

Just a thought though if it is 70% maybe .. don't get defensive.. but maybe their influence should be not entirely damned? I realize a lot of our laws and codes are ethic based but many are religious based too. That was their foundation. Religious morals and principles are not all bad! It's like Christmas we all get to share that even when many don't go for the Christian story.

I know that religious people aren't automatically bad, nor that the majority of them are bad, but the majority of them can be influenced by religious practitioners who seek to hold and maintain political and social dominance. There's a reason con men like John Hagee, Jimmy Swaggart, Rod Parsley, and others hold so much sway, along with piles of cash. When you don't think about your position, or when you believe your position is automatically the God ordained one, you let bad things slide when it comes from "good," "moral" Christians. Remember, owning slaves was once considered the Christian thing to do.

 

[Jayson1]

Do you think this is getting a little circular? I worship what I believe. It's always been there for me and I can't pretend it away.

70% is a lot. I'm not so sure I would want to tear away sciences that is silly.. no wonder I struck nerves here. And believe it or not I'm okay with people who don't believe, even if they then turn around and say I'm awful for not wanting the non-believers salvation when that is not what I do want.

Just a thought though if it is 70% maybe .. don't get defensive.. but maybe their influence should be not entirely damned? I realize a lot of our laws and codes are ethic based but many are religious based too. That was their foundation. Religious morals and principles are not all bad! It's like Christmas we all get to share that even when many don't go for the Christian story.

I don't think people are saying all religious people are bad but are just trying to understand why some are okay with the concept of a hell? We don't see the ethical motive for allowing something like that to happen when it doesn't have to? Why would God allow this to happen, even if you do bye into the idea that a person has a choice between heaven or hell? Also why is the choice only given to people while on earth? Why not allow them the choice after death once they can get a better understanding about how the afterlife is?

Jason

 

[Amaris]

I don't think people are saying all religious people are bad but are just trying to understand why some are okay with the concept of a hell? We don't see the ethical motive for allowing something like that to happen when it doesn't have to? Why would God allow this to happen, even if you do bye into the idea that a person has a choice between heaven or hell? Also why is the choice only given to people while on earth? Why not allow them the choice after death once they can get a better understanding about how the afterlife is?

Jason

One of the reasons I started examining my faith on a deeper level was the hell question. I wondered why God needed hell if Jesus was the savior of everyone. I was told that people had to choose, because Jesus wouldn't enter into their hearts unless they asked him. I then inquired into people who had never heard of Jesus. The response? "Little is required where little is known." I was surprised by that answer, and asked why we told people about Jesus if little is required to get into heaven when one is ignorant of the Gospel, and the answer was "to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, of course!"

It's a deeply flawed belief system.

 

[Jayson1]

One of the reasons I started examining my faith on a deeper level was the hell question. I wondered why God needed hell if Jesus was the savior of everyone. I was told that people had to choose, because Jesus wouldn't enter into their hearts unless they asked him. I then inquired into people who had never heard of Jesus. The response? "Little is required where little is known." I was surprised by that answer, and asked why we told people about Jesus if little is required to get into heaven when one is ignorant of the Gospel, and the answer was "to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, of course!"

It's a deeply flawed belief system.

For me I was never really into religion. I went I think one year as a little kid and that was it. My family never went to church and while I guess we all considered ourselves as Christians it's not something I think anyone really thought much about it. Eventually I saw no need for the label.
Yet I got to admit even though I don't believe in a hell it is something that I do fear. Maybe in the way people might get scared of a haunted house or ghost story. Granted I kind of fear any afterlife as well because it means a change in your life and maybe your very nature and I don't see how that can't be scary to anyone. Imagine in the blink of a eye you go from being a human in your house to being a alien on a alien planet. That is a pretty big change to happen without any kind of warning or preparation.

Jason

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Can I ask this? You don't believe in it, so why does it matter to you that someone else does? Is that not for the someone else to reconcile?

I get upset that people believe in hell the same reason I get upset if people believe in racial eugenics or that being gay is wrong etc.. because these beliefs condemn people, judge people, put fear into people who are susceptible to it, load children down with crippling guilt and worry and, well, there's absolutely nothing good about the belief at all. It's toxic. Some people seem to embrace the toxic element with glee but others seem to be laboring under a fear of thinking it through. They were told it's part of the belief package and they just go along with it. They blithely say they believe in it the way someone else might say they believe in astral projection, with no understanding that they are condemning most of this world to eternal torture and damnation. Oh it's just my religious belief.. but it is about the people reading it and hearing it. So the people reading it and hearing it IMO have every right to object, argue the point and ask why anyone would believe such a horrible thing.

 

[Jayson1]

I get upset that people believe in hell the same reason I get upset if people believe in racial eugenics or that being gay is wrong etc.. because these beliefs condemn people, judge people, put fear into people who are susceptible to it, load children down with crippling guilt and worry and, well, there's absolutely nothing good about the belief at all. It's toxic. Some people seem to embrace the toxic element with glee but others seem to be laboring under a fear of thinking it through. They were told it's part of the belief package and they just go along with it. They blithely say they believe in it the way someone else might say they believe in astral projection, with no understanding that they are condemning most of this world to eternal torture and damnation. Oh it's just my religious belief.. but it is about the people reading it and hearing it. So the people reading it and hearing it IMO have every right to object, argue the point and ask why anyone would believe such a horrible thing.

I understand what your saying, but to play devil's advocate couldn't you say that the idea that telling people their isn't a God is just as scary of a idea to present to people? The idea that they will die and will cease to exist for all of eternity and they will never see their loved ones again. I remember the first time I conceived the idea of death. It was when I was a kid and I was down at my Dad's home for the summer and I was sleeping on one of those couches that fold into a bed. I was sharing the bed with my step brothers and I guess the topic came up and they told me that someday my mom would die and that all people die and I know I started crying because of the concept.
If someone really does believe in the idea that you need to pick the right religion to get into heaven then is it really wrong if they tell you that, because from their point of view I can see them as wanting to help you by giving you what they see as the truth. I mean if I really thought their was one true way to not die I know I would want someone to tell me what it is.
Just because people think differently doesn't necessary mean they are bad people even if some of their beliefs do seem bad, because a person's intentions should mean something.
I know some religious people do get hateful and they want to force their views down other people's throats but I think their is a difference between a good person with a bad idea and a mean person with the same bad idea.

Jason

 

[Amaris]

For me I was never really into religion. I went I think one year as a little kid and that was it. My family never went to church and while I guess we all considered ourselves as Christians it's not something I think anyone really thought much about it. Eventually I saw no need for the label.
Yet I got to admit even though I don't believe in a hell it is something that I do fear. Maybe in the way people might get scared of a haunted house or ghost story. Granted I kind of fear any afterlife as well because it means a change in your life and maybe your very nature and I don't see how that can't be scary to anyone. Imagine in the blink of a eye you go from being a human in your house to being a alien on a alien planet. That is a pretty big change to happen without any kind of warning or preparation.

Jason

The idea of hell doesn't scare me. What scares me is that there are people who believe in hell, and who want to see other human beings burning in hell for all of eternity. They delight in the idea of someone they don't like being punished and tormented non-stop beyond the end of all time. People who have committed no crime save they are gay, or transgender. People who ask questions, atheists, witches, anyone who doesn't fall into the category of a fervent believer in their idea of a perfect god.

Not saying everyone here professes to such a belief, only that I find it ghastly in every way. I've mentioned it before, but I was an Evangelical Christian. Moreso, I was a minister of the faith, steeped in Biblical knowledge. I was devout, to every degree. I believed, and I believed with all of my heart.

 

[Refuge]

What a lot of generalizations and projecting.

I feel kind of sorry for you

 

[Amaris]

What a lot of generalizations and projecting.

I feel kind of sorry for you

These are not generalizations, nor are they projections. These are stated beliefs, some I once held, others I learned from the people who taught me, people who were my peers, and people I keep in contact with to this day. It has also been stated by people running for political office, evangelists from megachurches down to corner churches and everywhere in between. These statements have been, in many cases, followed by something stronger than words thrown at people, there have been actions associated with those words, used against gay people, against immigrants, against anyone who does not fit into the very narrow Evangelical point of view. This is firsthand accounting I'm giving you. These are things I have witnessed.

 

[Refuge]

Is it just Christians? I've witnessed non-Christians causing harm.. Atheists.. communists.. muslims.. we all have the propensity to be seen as the enemy. To suggest that the group should be condemned because of some within.. is scare mongering.

 

[Amaris]

Is it just Christians? I've witnessed non-Christians causing harm.. Atheists.. communists.. muslims.. we all have the propensity to be seen as the enemy. To suggest that the group should be condemned because of some within.. is scare mongering.

I never suggested the group be condemned. Not once.

 

[Refuge]

Okay.. let's just let it be. We are all different and that is actually what makes things interesting!

 

[Spot261]

Is it just Christians? I've witnessed non-Christians causing harm.. Atheists.. communists.. muslims.. we all have the propensity to be seen as the enemy. To suggest that the group should be condemned because of some within.. is scare mongering.

Of course, any belief system can and will be twisted by human nature to cause harm. These things are human constructs after all and therefore reflect human nature. By and large they all tend to promote the same messages of peace in principle and are used to justify the same acts of violence in practise.

Leaving aside the way from an outside perspective one religion seems much the same as the next, making dismissing one but accepting another whole heartedly seem difficult to understand, the point several have tried to make is that there need not be a conflict between faith and science.

The two only come into conflict when people fail to understand one or the other, treating science as a rival faith rather than an unrelated process to deal with objective reality.

Science is not a religion, religion is not objective.

There are people out there who make both mistakes with the same result, real world conflict and suffering based on a strawman.

God created the universe? Ok, suppose we accept that, the next question becomes how? Is the Big Bang theory really such a terrible candidate?

God created mankind? Fair enough, but again, how did he/she/it do that? Is setting the scene for evolution by natural selection so unfeasible?

If I were to put a label on myself it would be agnostic, veering towards atheism, but IF God exists he (no political overtones, merely expediency there) must have worked his wonders via some mechanism. Science is the process of attempting to understand that mechanism, no matter who out it into motion.

 

[Refuge]

I like that.

I read and respect it but I'm not going to monopolize this thread any more. It wasn't my intent but I did find I was asked stuff and it got busy. That is not to say it has not been worthwhile or interesting. Thanks

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

but IF God exists he (no political overtones, merely expediency there)

Dude. It was one letter

 

[Spot261]

Dude. It was one letter

Nah, 41 letters, one comma and a space. Given a few dozen more paragraphs the (s)'s will add up to more.

I'm planning for the long game here.

 

[Amaris]

Okay.. let's just let it be. We are all different and that is actually what makes things interesting!

Indeed we are different, but I do think we have more in common than we have differences or, barring that, the things we have in common are beneficial to human beings as a whole.

Of course, any belief system can and will be twisted by human nature to cause harm. These things are human constructs after all and therefore reflect human nature. By and large they all tend to promote the same messages of peace in principle and are used to justify the same acts of violence in practise.

Leaving aside the way from an outside perspective one religion seems much the same as the next, making dismissing one but accepting another whole heartedly seem difficult to understand, the point several have tried to make is that there need not be a conflict between faith and science.

The two only come into conflict when people fail to understand one or the other, treating science as a rival faith rather than an unrelated process to deal with objective reality.

Science is not a religion, religion is not objective.

There are people out there who make both mistakes with the same result, real world conflict and suffering based on a strawman.

God created the universe? Ok, suppose we accept that, the next question becomes how? Is the Big Bang theory really such a terrible candidate?

God created mankind? Fair enough, but again, how did he/she/it do that? Is setting the scene for evolution by natural selection so unfeasible?

If I were to put a label on myself it would be agnostic, veering towards atheism, but IF God exists he (no political overtones, merely expediency there) must have worked his wonders via some mechanism. Science is the process of attempting to understand that mechanism, no matter who out it into motion.

See, I consider this a fair point of view. This is something I can easily respect, because it would be a personal faith that doesn't attempt to force me to submit to it, while at the same time, just asking me to offer that same consideration in return, which is something I would give gladly.