Generations/Time Travel rules/Kirk

[Kirk Prime]

Yes, I know that you have to jump through hoops. That's why I said at the very beginning of this discussion that this is just for fun and not meant to be taken seriously. I truly do not believe that Picard is still in the Nexus and everything since Generations is just make-believe. But this all started because of Picard's portrayal in the subsequent films and how he was so unlike how he was portrayed in the show. And because this whole universe is fictional, pretty much anything can be explained away, especially where time travel is concerned.

Fair enough, and I do find your thoughts both creative and fun to think about.

Except that the new Trek series Discovery supposedly takes place in the prime universe in the year 2255, 22 years after Nero's incursion. So by your logic, Discovery shouldn't exist.

Well, here's a thought on that. First, I'm guessing you saw the trailer for Discovery too. Does that really look like the prime universe to you? Does that look like Pike's era? Ridged Klingons? Enterprise's insignia?

But even if we ignore that, it still doesn't work perfectly. Just because Nero wiped out the prime universe, doesn't mean the stories of the prime universe didn't happen. It was a chain of events that led Nero to travel back in time and change things. So without some sort of actual on screen tie in to the Kelvin universe, it can be easily argued that Discovery is stories from a timeline that no longer exists, but did at one point.

I'm not sure why you keep insisting that the Abrams films would be part of Picard's fantasy. As I mentioned before, the ONLY link they have to the prime timeline is Prime Spock and Nero, neither of whom would have had anything to do with Picard still being in the Nexus.

There is an argument to that, though we do have the Countdown stories, which are a prequel to ST09, and Picard is in those stories. But yeah, I'll admit that's not canon.

Let's be realistic, shall we? We both know that Earth is going to be just fine regardless of the Probe, V'Ger, or any other threat it faced in the prime timeline. Even if they had to come up with explanations as to why this is so, all they'd have to do is create scenarios that will still solve the problem even though the means to that end are different. In one universe, Khan was defeated, and in another universe he was also defeated. The circumstances were completely different, but the end result was the same.

Technically, we won't know that unless and until these incidents are covered in movies. At this point, Earth has a threat that is coming, and we don't know how it's resolved.

They did realize the issue. They dealt with it by choosing to ignore it rather than waste screentime trying to explain it away.

Lazy writers do not resolve a problem, and ignoring something doesn't make it go away.

...You've seen how lazily Moore and Braga rewrote the opening of GEN, right? Scotty is suddenly spouting theories like Spock, and Chekov is drafting reporters to be nurses just like McCoy would have. Honestly, we're lucky they remembered to change the character names in the script.

Sure--that's a real world explanation--the writers didn't do a good job and/or were lazy. That is not however, an in canon explanation, which still does not exist.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your logic--the writers WERE lazy--and given how Braga wrote Flashback, where he killed a character that didn't die, it would not have shocked me to have Shatner refer to Doohan as Spock.

 

[Dukhat]

Fair enough, and I do find your thoughts both creative and fun to think about

Thanks, I appreciate that.

Well, here's a thought on that. First, I'm guessing you saw the trailer for Discovery too. Does that really look like the prime universe to you? Does that look like Pike's era? Ridged Klingons? Enterprise's insignia?

If you're asking me if I think it looks like "The Cage" (Which DSC chronologically takes place at the same time as)...obviously not. At the risk of alienating a few complete strangers here, only an idiot would think this show takes place in the same universe as what we saw in TOS. But unfortunately I don't make the rules determining that. Only CBS does.

But even if we ignore that, it still doesn't work perfectly. Just because Nero wiped out the prime universe, doesn't mean the stories of the prime universe didn't happen. It was a chain of events that led Nero to travel back in time and change things. So without some sort of actual on screen tie in to the Kelvin universe, it can be easily argued that Discovery is stories from a timeline that no longer exists, but did at one point.

But again, according to your theory, we should not be seeing anything having to do with the prime universe, if it was completely erased from the timeline. If we're still able to view events from it, then it wasn't erased.

But seriously, I kinda see what you're saying. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

Technically, we won't know that unless and until these incidents are covered in movies. At this point, Earth has a threat that is coming, and we don't know how it's resolved.

Tell you what: If the Kelvin universe gets to the point where V'Ger and the Probe were supposed to come to Earth, and yet we see or hear nothing about them and Earth is just fine, then you owe me a Coke.

 

[Kirk Prime]

If you're asking me if I think it looks like "The Cage" (Which DSC chronologically takes place at the same time as)...obviously not. At the risk of alienating a few complete strangers here, only an idiot would think this show takes place in the same universe as what we saw in TOS. But unfortunately I don't make the rules determining that. Only CBS does.

So therefore, the people at CBS are idiots.

We don't make the rules, but we also don't have to defy our knowledge and logic because CBS says so. Enterprise doesn't fit within the Star Trek canon for many reasons. I think it's arguable that Discovery may have the same issue. The hope is that the show has better writers.

I think one big problem Star Trek has is that it doesn't embrace its past well enough. TOS should be revered by these writers and producers and I don't get that sense. As we have shown in this thread, it is very possible to have Kirk Prime return. Better writers than me can certainly come up with something, and I would also argue that even Shatner's age isn't an issue, especially thanks to CGI. Look at Kurt Russell or Carrie Fisher in Guardians 2 and Rogue One. That can easily be done with Shatner, yet for some reason, these writers and producers have chosen to ignore this for a long time. Nostalgia always sells, but Star Trek doesn't seem to understand that.

A great comparison is Doctor Who. If you ever see the classic stuff, and I admit I rarely have, you would think it would be hard to put it in the same continuity as the current show. But that's exactly what they do.

They embrace their past and often work little things into canon that reminds us that yes, it's all one big universe.

Compare the 50th anniversaries of both franchises--Doctor Who went out and got pretty much all the living Doctors involved in it. They even showed Paul McGann's regeneration in a Youtube video and got Tom Baker to make a cameo.

Talk about embracing your past and writing a love letter not just to the fans but to the series.

Star Trek made a movie in the 50th year, and while I enjoyed the movie, it was merely an ordinary movie. Where was Shatner, or Stewart, or other past actors? Where was the epic story that brought it all together?

Don't get me wrong, I liked Beyond, but it wasn't a 50th anniversary special occasion story.

I don't see how Discovery is going to solve this problem. Good writing would have us in a position where while of course the ship is more modern, and the stories reflect society today, this ship would mesh with the Pike era somehow.

But again, according to your theory, we should not be seeing anything having to do with the prime universe, if it was completely erased from the timeline. If we're still able to view events from it, then it wasn't erased.

But seriously, I kinda see what you're saying. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

It depends which rules of time travel we are dealing with. Under Abrams' rules, then this is no issue at all--but Abrams' rules are actually NOT supported by canon.

Under Roddenberry's rules, erasing a timeline doesn't mean that timeline never existed, or you couldn't erase the timeline.

For example, if McCoy goes back in time and saves Edith, altering history to the point where the Nazis win the war, then he won't be at the Guardian to travel back in time to save Edith.

The new timeline clearly continues, and the old timeline is clearly gone, but the remnant of McCoy's actions is there, so that means that while the timeline no longer exists, it still did exist at one point, and until that timeline disappeared, it carried out from beginning to end.

All the things from the prime universe happened, past, present, and future, even if it was recorded over.

Tell you what: If the Kelvin universe gets to the point where V'Ger and the Probe were supposed to come to Earth, and yet we see or hear nothing about them and Earth is just fine, then you owe me a Coke.

Fine, unless a time traveler erases Coke from existence.

I wouldn't be shocked if at some point, the stories of VGer and Probe in the Abrams universe will be told, though if that happens, it would be in a novel.

 

[JediKnightButler]

I have a theory that Kirk Prime is actually alive and well. How to explain it kind of depends on how one feels about time travel rules in Star Trek.

I'm a bit unclear as to whether this discussion belongs here or in the Kelvin thread but it kind of has elements of both so I'll leave it to the moderators.

For decades, Star Trek had a very simple view on time travel--if you travel back in time and do something, you can change history. Some of Trek's finest stories have been based on that principle, from City on the Edge, to Yesterday's Enterprise to First Contact and many more. Pretty much every time travel story we had involved the risk of changing history.

There are always some loopholes, often to make the story work, that the time traveler himself is immune to the changes in time travel. If not for that, Kirk and crew disappear when McCoy saves Edith, and there is no Enterprise D to stop the Borg.

If you solely go by what you see on screen, and I am in that camp, then when Spock and Nero traveled back in time, they erased all the stories we saw before that movie and the Kelvin Timeline replaces the Roddenberry timeline completely. Spock Prime and Nero still exist, because again, the time traveler somehow is immune to these things.

This is been a debate between Star Trek fans for a long time, because JJ Abrams, off camera, tried to use his own time travel rules. He explains that when you travel in time, you create a new universe, and the timeline you left still exists. That's perfectly acceptable, except that contradicts everything we know about time travel rules in Star Trek, and would take away the risk and reward of all the great time travel stories we saw.

Worse, given that canon is what we see on screen, Abrams, who had the right to WRITE those lines in the story, chose not to. An alternate reality, as Uhura calls it, happens in all cases of time travel, but that does not mean that the original reality still exists.

Because of that, I've never been able to accept Abrams' statement since had he wanted that, he could have put it in the movie and made it crystal clear.

Of course, other universes DO exist in Star Trek, as we saw in Parallels and Mirror Mirror, and they have also been a part of some of the best Trek stories. However, nothing in ST09 mentioned that Spock Prime was from an alternate universe. Every time that universal changes happened, it was crystal clear that we were being treated to that story. If time travel happens, the timeline is at risk. Not so with changing universes.

So while a universe identical to the prime universe exists, it's not THE prime universe because the timeline changed. I do think that if they ever wanted to do so, they could override this presumption with dialogue and a story, but so far, they have not done so.

All of the above is more of a Kelvin timeline topic, and this is more about Generations.

I would argue that under both theories of time travel, Kirk Prime is still alive. I'll save the Abrams version of time travel for later, but it seems pretty clear that the way the nexus was set up, you can exit at any time, in any place, but you can't leave in a place where you already exist. If you do so, your other self will cease to exist, replaced by the version exiting the nexus. Guinan's echo said she couldn't leave because she was already there. Based on the fact that Picard's pre-nexus self was not there, it would be easy to argue that had Guinan left with Picard, she would have wiped out 78 years of her life, including everything we saw on TNG, and that's a lot to ask, when Kirk was in the nexus.

Picard only lost about 10 minutes and a beating, so it wasn't that big of a deal. Also, since Kirk didn't exist at a point after he went into the nexus, there was no Kirk to replace, which is why Kirk could exit there.

Had Kirk exited on the Enterprise B or before, he would have replaced himself.

I believe that when you're in the nexus, a version of you exists in the nexus at all times and places, capable of exiting--until the nexus itself is destroyed. If you can exit at any time, then if you enter at any time, you will have access to anyone who ever went in the nexus, and they would be capable of leaving. Essentially, an infinite number of Kirks and Picards.

So that's one way Kirk survives.

Another is much more simple. Under Roddenberry rules, Picard and Kirk traveled to a point in the past, even a short point, before Picard entered the nexus. In the nexus, Kirk was chopping wood while his future self was helping Picard ready to get killed. By stopping Soran though, Picard never enters the nexus, and that version of Kirk then never leaves. His doppleganger is dead on Veridian III, but Kirk Prime is still in there because Soran never destroyed the star and Picard never encountered Kirk Prime.

Honestly, I always looked at what happened with the Kelvin Universe as having created an alternate timeline/reality independent of the "original" TOS timeline a la Back To The Future 2 due to arrival of Nero through the singularity and his history-altering actions by attacking the Kelvin and killing Kirk's Dad.

 

[Phoenix219]

But Back to the Future 2 never created an independent alternate time line.... it re recorded over the original timeline, hence them not being able to return to 2015, and the running timer on their existance (disappearing photo.)

 

[Kirk Prime]

Honestly, I always looked at what happened with the Kelvin Universe as having created an alternate timeline/reality independent of the "original" TOS timeline a la Back To The Future 2 due to arrival of Nero through the singularity and his history-altering actions by attacking the Kelvin and killing Kirk's Dad.

But Back to the Future 2 never created an independent alternate time line.... it re recorded over the original timeline, hence them not being able to return to 2015, and the running timer on their existance (disappearing photo.)

First, agreed that BTTF2 was more like Roddenberry rules of time travel. In some ways though it's more heavy handed, because the time traveler in BTTF will eventually be overwritten as well.

What the first quote is describing is more like Abrams' rules of time travel. The problem with that is that the Abrams rules of time travel in Star Trek are not actually supported anywhere in the Star Trek canon.

Yes, there is a multiverse in Star Trek, but when a character travels to another universe, it is very clear that they are doing so. ST09 had the chance to put that in the movie and purposefully chose not to do so.

I think that Abrams was trying to have his cake and eat it too.

If the Kelvin Universe is not the same universe as the prime universe, then the characters we follow in his movies are not the original characters. They are alternates. So if Vulcan blows up, who cares? The "real" Vulcan that the "real" Spock was from is fine. If a character dies, so what? Same thing.

If the Kelvin Universe is truly distinct, then these aren't the original characters. They are duplicates no different than Mirror Spock with the goatee.

I don't think Abrams liked that. I can't find it, but I could have sworn that Abrams at one point before ST09 made a comment that the characters here are the original characters, not alternates.

If that's true, then we ARE following the original characters. Problem is, that means that we are using Roddenberry Rules of time travel, and that means that all the Star Trek before ST09 was erased by the events of that movie--the only exception being Spock Prime.

That's a pretty bold thing to do, given the passion Star Trek fans have for their franchise.

So Abrams makes his movie, has an off camera interview that says one thing, but the movie does the other.

I don't really like that style myself. Make a choice and own it.

If the Kelvin universe is truly distinct, show it on screen. Prove it. One thing about the issue is that Abrams can absolutely undo any presumption that the prime universe is gone.

He just has to do it.

Another point--how do we really know that the Kelvin Universe and the Prime Universe were identical before Nero? The aesthetics of the Kelvin didn't really look pre-Pike, and didn't they all have the Enterprise insignia on their uniforms too? So there's that as well.

 

[Qonundrum]

Abrams had a point, creating alternate timelines. It reminds me of "Sliders", where events playing out differently cause different futures. Abrams' is easily brilliant a concept.

In other timelines one might exist that postulates other timelines can't possibly exist, though it would be wrong.

Also, noting IDIC applied on a causal scale, a future Star Trek could have a band of heroes named Kirk, Spock, etc, fighting an evil Federation, using the same time travel/alternate timeline rules. Then everyone can say it's ripping off Firefly and Blake's 7 (which everyone said was a poor imitation of Star Trek despite not understanding its premise, LOL!) The other interesting facet to that is that the same principal could have an alternate universe where Kirk, Spock, Uhura, etc in galactic versions of Mitch, Hobie, CJ, etc... Or Lister, Rimmer, Cat, etc... )

 

[VOODOOXI]

Bottom line is the nexus was just lazy writing and a way to get William Shatner and Patrick Stewart on screen together.

Being that this is Star Trek, a series where nearly every character has “died” only to be magically be brought back to life and completely illogical use of time travel is common place, Shatner’s return as Kirk through the poorly thought out nexus concept (never fully explained) could be handled quite easily.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Abrams had a point, creating alternate timelines. It reminds me of "Sliders", where events playing out differently cause different futures. Abrams' is easily brilliant a concept.

Here's the thing though--Sliders, or in Star Trek, "Parallels" is an entirely different concept than basic Roddenberry time travel. The way Roddenberry had it, yes, there is a multiverse, but time travel isn't a means of getting to another universe. If you time travel, there is a real danger that you can alter YOUR reality. You don't just pop into another universe and play God.

In the mirror stories, or Parallels, we the viewer are told flat out that going to another universe is exactly what's happening. It's clear. Crystal clear.

Likewise, when time travel happens, that's clear too.

In ST09, Abrams, on screen, only showed us time travel. He never mentioned a different universe. The closest was a line by Uhura talking about an alternate reality, but that would happen if they were in the same universe too. Nothing in Uhura's line suggests that the prime universe still exists. And given that they could have used that dialogue quite easily, and didn't, it makes me have to presume that the prime universe is gone, because under Roddenberry rules, time travel erases history.

It is absolutely true that within Star Trek's world, a universe exists exactly like the prime universe, but nothing suggests that the actual prime universe exists.

Bottom line is the nexus was just lazy writing and a way to get William Shatner and Patrick Stewart on screen together.

Being that this is Star Trek, a series where nearly every character has “died” only to be magically be brought back to life and completely illogical use of time travel is common place, Shatner’s return as Kirk through the poorly thought out nexus concept (never fully explained) could be handled quite easily.

I think the nexus was actually a pretty cool concept, but not developed enough, and it's something that absolutely would be awesome to revisit. There are so many possibilities with it and absolutely it can be used to bring back Kirk Prime.

The openings are there.

 

[Phoenix219]

So if time travel always creates entirely new, physically real, coexisting universes, then the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline still exists, and the Nazi future from City still exists, and a world where the Enterprise was a UFO still exists, and a world destroyed by the Probe still exists.....

You can't have them both ways.

 

[Kirk Prime]

So if time travel always creates entirely new, physically real, coexisting universes, then the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline still exists, and the Nazi future from City still exists, and a world where the Enterprise was a UFO still exists, and a world destroyed by the Probe still exists.....

You can't have them both ways.

More than that, all the jeopardy that the Roddenberry time travel stories had would have been nonsense. Plus, the Abrams rules really screw up a lot. Why would Sela exist? Or is that a new universe and we never returned to the universe that existed before Yesterday's Enterprise?

Why would Kirk care about the Nazis winning the war when he could have just had the Guardian return him to his own universe?

The Abrams way messes a lot of episodes of Star Trek up, but worse, there is NO evidence that the Abrams way actually was used by Abrams. It's only off camera commentary.

So if we agree that the Abrams way is NOT how time travel works, even in today's Star Trek, how can we argue that the prime universe exists, based solely on canon?

I don't think we can.

HOWEVER, at the same time, nothing precludes a future story from re-establishing the prime universe--but it would require both universes in the same story.