Loose lipped Poe

[Ithekro]

Early on, before the lightsaber fight, Palpatine is encouraging Luke to take his Jedi weapon, give him to his anger, and strike the Emperor down. His journey towards the Dark Side would be complete. When Luke finally does this, and Vader blocks, Palpatine just laughs. By this point Palpatine is more or less the embodiment of the Dark Side of the Force. As far as he's concerned, if Luke falls to the Dark Side, he wins. Strike Palpatine down with all that anger and hatred, and the Light is lost. Corruption takes over. The lust for power takes over. Even in death, Palpatine would win. That's how fantasy stories are framed when the moral element is made manifest as the source of the powers of good and evil.

 

[Awesome Possum]

No?
The opening shot of RotS is one of many beautiful instances of "show don't tell". We are reintroduced to Anakin and Obi Wan by seeing them flying in sync, signaling their growth.

Haha, no.

That's the closest we get to them being "friends" other than them talking about adventures we never saw and ignoring how Anakin seems to dislike him when with Padme.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Haha, no.

That's the closest we get to them being "friends" other than them talking about adventures we never saw and ignoring how Anakin seems to dislike him when with Padme.

???
My example was by definition a "show don't tell moment". That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Nice goalposts tho.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Even in death, Palpatine would win.

Isn't evil about hedonism? Palpatine wouldn't care about things that happen after he dies.

 

[Awesome Possum]

???
My example was by definition a "show don't tell moment". That's not an opinion, it's a fact. Nice goalposts tho.

What are we shown? Because all I see is backtracking. They are never shown as friends before or after, yet Obi-Wan later looks back on him as a good friend. It's only one scene and not a constant character trait. Han and Luke are shown to be friends in every scene they're together in. You never see Han ranting to Leia about how Luke makes him look bad. It's quite the opposite given Han's concern when Lando tells him that Vader really wants Luke and not them. Time and again we're shown that they're friends and we only get one scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan and the entire film hinges on them being friends turned enemies.

 

[Shinzon4u]

What are we shown?

I already said this.
You're just moving the goalposts now. You're admitting that my example is an example of show don't tell, but now saying that it doesn't make up for the rest of the movie.

 

[Ithekro]

He likely isn't expecting to die. However he is the long term planner Sith Lord. Plans within plans. If we consider how much Darth Vader fears this man, we are expected to think he is far more powerful and thus Luke can't just fight him a win. He looks defenseless. And that is part of his ploy. At any time he can call on the Force to stay Luke's hand, or electrocute him. Vader, MUST obey his master. That's fear right there. And from what we saw in previous OT films, Vader was the one to be feared. But someone he fears, and is even less forgiving that Vader? This man is scary.

Palpatine's goal is to get Luke to fall to the Dark Side. He figures that once this happens Luke will crave power and join the Emperor as the only one who can complete his training in the Dark Side. Luke, if he does kill his father in a rage, falls to the Dark Side. He might attempt to kill the Emperor, but discover that he can't. If he manages to fuel his rage and hatred, he will just become more a servant of evil, as Yoda put it. Eventually, the only option left to Luke, for a short term solution to the problem at hand (saving his friends), is to join the Emperor. That is the only way left to save them if he can't defeat the Emperor. And even that won't really work. Palpatine might (might) call off his troops and let the Rebels escape, just so they can be used later on to twist Luke even more into the Dark Side. Eventually setting it up so Luke has to kill them, directly or indirectly in his efforts to defeat the Emperor with the Dark Side. The Sith apprentice's goal is to learn all one can from the Master and then kill the Master to become the next Master. Palpatine knows this. He's trying to gain an apprentice that is worthy to follow him. Palpatine will someday die (unless he can find a way to cheat death), but with a properly powerful Sith Lord to eventually replace him.....he wins for the Sith Empire. Luke Skywalker, Dark Lord of the Sith, eventually gains enough power and knowledge to overthrow Palpatine....but is so deep into the Dark Side that he will retain power, control over the Empire. It will be too late.

Unless Leia still lives....Hope will have died in the Galaxy.

 

[Shinzon4u]

He likely isn't expecting to die. However he is the long term planner Sith Lord. Plans within plans. If we consider how much Darth Vader fears this man, we are expected to think he is far more powerful and thus Luke can't just fight him a win. He looks defenseless. And that is part of his ploy. At any time he can call on the Force to stay Luke's hand, or electrocute him. Vader, MUST obey his master. That's fear right there. And from what we saw in previous OT films, Vader was the one to be feared. But someone he fears, and is even less forgiving that Vader? This man is scary.

Palpatine's goal is to get Luke to fall to the Dark Side. He figures that once this happens Luke will crave power and join the Emperor as the only one who can complete his training in the Dark Side. Luke, if he does kill his father in a rage, falls to the Dark Side. He might attempt to kill the Emperor, but discover that he can't. If he manages to fuel his rage and hatred, he will just become more a servant of evil, as Yoda put it. Eventually, the only option left to Luke, for a short term solution to the problem at hand (saving his friends), is to join the Emperor. That is the only way left to save them if he can't defeat the Emperor. And even that won't really work. Palpatine might (might) call off his troops and let the Rebels escape, just so they can be used later on to twist Luke even more into the Dark Side. Eventually setting it up so Luke has to kill them, directly or indirectly in his efforts to defeat the Emperor with the Dark Side. The Sith apprentice's goal is to learn all one can from the Master and then kill the Master to become the next Master. Palpatine knows this. He's trying to gain an apprentice that is worthy to follow him. Palpatine will someday die (unless he can find a way to cheat death), but with a properly powerful Sith Lord to eventually replace him.....he wins for the Sith Empire. Luke Skywalker, Dark Lord of the Sith, eventually gains enough power and knowledge to overthrow Palpatine....but is so deep into the Dark Side that he will retain power, control over the Empire. It will be too late.

Unless Leia still lives....Hope will have died in the Galaxy.

Eh, I don't see the incentive for Luke ever joining Palp. Would be OOC.

 

[Ithekro]

The only way to save his friends, if Luke falls to the Dark Side, is joining Palpatine.

Why? It is OOC for Luke. The answer is simple, because that is the only route left to defeat Palpatine. All other options are gone. The only way left to defeat the evil is to join the evil and use it to defeat it later once you learn all evil's secrets. That is how these types of stories go.

If Luke takes any other option, he dies, the Rebels lose, the Galaxy loses. Palpatine wins. Joining Palpatine is still a win for Palpatine, but has the end goal of defeating the Emperor from the inside and has a chance it could work....The Galaxy still loses, and the corruption will eventually cause Luke to become the Emperor after killing Palpatine. The Galaxy will be left in darkness.

At that point, the only hope left is Leia. And she has no one to train her.

 

[Shinzon4u]

The only way to save his friends, if Luke falls to the Dark Side, is joining Palpatine.

Why? It is OOC for Luke. The answer is simple, because that is the only route left to defeat Palpatine. All other options are gone. The only way left to defeat the evil is to join the evil and use it to defeat it later once you learn all evil's secrets. That is how these types of stories go.

If Luke takes any other option, he dies, the Rebels lose, the Galaxy loses. Palpatine wins. Joining Palpatine is still a win for Palpatine, but has the end goal of defeating the Emperor from the inside and has a chance it could work....The Galaxy still loses, and the corruption will eventually cause Luke to become the Emperor after killing Palpatine. The Galaxy will be left in darkness.

At that point, the only hope left is Leia. And she has no one to train her.

That's the thing though. Anakin had incentive because, as you say, he felt he needed to buy what Palp was selling (Padme cure), Luke is a more stable guy, and Palp doesn't have that kind of leverage over him.

 

[Ithekro]

Palpatine's leverage his Luke's friends on Endor, and Luke's cause, which is to defeat the Empire. Luke can't defeat the Empire because he can't defeat the Emperor after killing Vader. His fall to the Dark Side is complete. He can swing and strain all he wants at Palpatine....it won't work. There is nothing he can do to defeat this Sith Lord, but the taste of power from killing Vader plants the seed to a way to defeat Palpatine. Learn what the old man has to offer and use that to defeat him.

Luke, if he kills Vader, is literally out of options. What choices does he have left that have any realistic chance of him not being killed and the Alliance failing to defeat the Empire?

 

[Shinzon4u]

Palpatine's leverage his Luke's friends on Endor, and Luke's cause, which is to defeat the Empire. Luke can't defeat the Empire because he can't defeat the Emperor after killing Vader. His fall to the Dark Side is complete. He can swing and strain all he wants at Palpatine....it won't work. There is nothing he can do to defeat this Sith Lord, but the taste of power from killing Vader plants the seed to a way to defeat Palpatine. Learn what the old man has to offer and use that to defeat him.

Luke, if he kills Vader, is literally out of options. What choices does he have left that have any realistic chance of him not being killed and the Alliance failing to defeat the Empire?

I'm just saying I don't think Luke is that... what's the word? Desperate? Unstable?
I just don't see Luke going that route.

As a side note and possible point in your favor, Lucas likes the Dark Empire comic (which I haven't read). How does Luke turn dark there I wonder?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I already said this.
You're just moving the goalposts now. You're admitting that my example is an example of show don't tell, but now saying that it doesn't make up for the rest of the movie.

Why are you ignoring the rest of my post?

What are we shown? Because all I see is backtracking. They are never shown as friends before or after, yet Obi-Wan later looks back on him as a good friend. It's only one scene and not a constant character trait. Han and Luke are shown to be friends in every scene they're together in. You never see Han ranting to Leia about how Luke makes him look bad. It's quite the opposite given Han's concern when Lando tells him that Vader really wants Luke and not them. Time and again we're shown that they're friends and we only get one scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan and the entire film hinges on them being friends turned enemies.

That isn't show don't tell. I don't think you understand what that even means.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Why are you ignoring the rest of my post?

That isn't show don't tell. I don't think you understand what that even means.

?
Can you refute the fact the showing the fighters flying in sync is an instance of visual storytelling?

 

[fireproof78]

That's the thing though. Anakin had incentive because, as you say, he felt he needed to buy what Palp was selling (Padme cure), Luke is a more stable guy, and Palp doesn't have that kind of leverage over him.

But, Luke isn't as stable in that moment. Again, it doesn't take but a moment of weakness and compromise for the Dark Side to take hold. Then, Luke is more succeptible to Palpatine's manipulations, especially since Luke flew in to a rage at Vader for daring to say anything about Leia.

Interestingly enough, a lot of this mirrors what happened in the PT, even in short form, especially in ROTS.
Dooku stirs up Anakin's darker tendencies by mentioning Padme.
Palpatine encourages Anakin to kill Dooku, despite Anakin's acknowledgement that it is wrong.
Palpatine isolates Anakin from his supports, since both Yoda and Obi-Wan are off world.
Palpatine uses his fear of loss to push him to attack Windu.

Palpatine is a master manipulator. He is goading Luke constantly when he appears before him in ROTJ. He makes constant allusions that Luke will fail, his friends will die and the galaxy will be lost. Facing such odds, the temptation to draw upon the dark power would be pretty intense.

 

[Shinzon4u]

But, Luke isn't as stable in that moment. Again, it doesn't take but a moment of weakness and compromise for the Dark Side to take hold. Then, Luke is more succeptible to Palpatine's manipulations, especially since Luke flew in to a rage at Vader for daring to say anything about Leia.

Interestingly enough, a lot of this mirrors what happened in the PT, even in short form, especially in ROTS.
Dooku stirs up Anakin's darker tendencies by mentioning Padme.
Palpatine encourages Anakin to kill Dooku, despite Anakin's acknowledgement that it is wrong.
Palpatine isolates Anakin from his supports, since both Yoda and Obi-Wan are off world.
Palpatine uses his fear of loss to push him to attack Windu.

Palpatine is a master manipulator. He is goading Luke constantly when he appears before him in ROTJ. He makes constant allusions that Luke will fail, his friends will die and the galaxy will be lost. Facing such odds, the temptation to draw upon the dark power would be pretty intense.

The movie just never really sells me on the fact that Luke would do something like that. And the thing is, I don't think it's trying to. The scene works fine on an emotional level, it just doesn't really make sense logically. But I don't think Lucas cared since Luke wasn't going to turn anyway, unlike Anakin, so he kind of handwaved The Emperor's plan.

 

[Awesome Possum]

?
Can you refute the fact the showing the fighters flying in sync is an instance of visual storytelling?

It's a scene. No story is being told.

 

[Ithekro]

As a side note and possible point in your favor, Lucas likes the Dark Empire comic (which I haven't read). How does Luke turn dark there I wonder?

The comic is now something like 25 years old, but I'll put it in spoilers anyway. This doesn't cover the whole plot, just the general idea of Luke's fall and redemption from the Dark Side

Spoiler

Six years after the Battle of Endor, Luke gets captured. He discovers the Emperor is alive. Luke attempts to defeat the Emperor using his skills as a Jedi. Fails. The Emperor has found a way beyond death, so nothing Luke does will defeat him. Palpatine again suggests that Luke join him to replace the long dead Vader, as is his destiny. Luke agrees because he sees no other way He cannot defeat the Emperor unless he discovers how he is surviving death. He uses this time to attempt to undermine the Empire's advances and learn the Emperor's secrets. But he falls more and more to the Dark Side...it clouds his thinking. Only Leia can manage to pull Luke towards the Light enough for Luke to challenge the Emperor a second time after learning how the Emperor is cheating death. He again loses (losing his mechanical arm again). He now is more like Vader...serving in fear of the Emperor ,while trying to find a way to overthrow him. Again Leia comes. She manages to draw Luke back to the Light after he attempts one last time to fight with the Dark Side, that fails, but with both Skywalkers fighting Palpatine in the Light....they get the Emperor really mad. So made that he calls up a Force Storm to destroy all the Rebels on the planet below. But the Skywalkers have learned something. They combine their efforts in the Light and ever so briefly distract Palpatine from his fury. Cut him off from the Dark Side for a moment. Just long enough for him to lose control of the Storm, which turns back on him. (This is not the end of the story, but that's the arc of Luke's fall and redemption. The rest of the comic and the few novels that reference the events have Luke understand both the Light Side and the Dark Side and become a generally better Jedi Master for it. He still loses some students to the Dark Side, but many of them he manages to bring back because of his personal experience in the matter.

 

[Shinzon4u]

It's a scene. No story is being told.

?
We are seeing the closeness of two people conveyed without words.

 

[fireproof78]

The movie just never really sells me on the fact that Luke would do something like that. And the thing is, I don't think it's trying to. The scene works fine on an emotional level, it just doesn't really make sense logically. But I don't think Lucas cared since Luke wasn't going to turn anyway, unlike Anakin, so he kind of handwaved The Emperor's plan.

I disagree, as Luke obviously has reckless and darker tendencies, so much so, that Yoda and Obi-Wan are concerned. Also, since it is an emotional decision, no, logic will not work.