Did Janeway Kill Tuvix?
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I think he was a brilliant actor, and played that part flawlessly, I for one would have loved to see him in future episodes along with Tuvok and Neelix as well
Yes I agree, one of the most memorable and engaging performances I have ever seen ! Very moving and thought provoking....I really did not want him to die.......as much as I have not wanted ANY T.V. character to die before or since ! ! ! !
Just watched this for the first time and SUCH a good episode. Kind of the opposite of 'Threshold', which took an interesting premise and turned it into a catastrophic embarrassment of an episode, 'Tuvix' took an absurd and silly (on paper) premise and turned it into one of the most thought-provoking Trek episodes.
Beyond the moral dilemmas/philosophical questions the episode creates, it's also made perfect by a wonderful and convincing performance by Tom Wright and an emotional and powerful performance by Kate Mulgrew.
As for whether Janeway made the right decision...I kind of have to agree that even if you cloned Tuvix, that would still leave the dilemma of whether clone Tuvix should also be split. And I suppose, as Guy Gardener said, maybe this Tuvok and Neelix are (sort of) clones or duplicates of a kind after Deadlock so...yeah it doesn't seem like a solution.
Ultimately, Janeway did have the responsibility to speak for Neelix and Tuvok and I'm inclined to say she did the right thing. They never consented to create a third being and I am not convinced that you can really call them dead if their consciousnesses are still in some sense in existence and there is a way to bring them back to life.
But I definitely need to give this some more thought...
Beyond the moral dilemmas/philosophical questions the episode creates, it's also made perfect by a wonderful and convincing performance by Tom Wright and an emotional and powerful performance by Kate Mulgrew.
As for whether Janeway made the right decision...I kind of have to agree that even if you cloned Tuvix, that would still leave the dilemma of whether clone Tuvix should also be split. And I suppose, as Guy Gardener said, maybe this Tuvok and Neelix are (sort of) clones or duplicates of a kind after Deadlock so...yeah it doesn't seem like a solution.
Ultimately, Janeway did have the responsibility to speak for Neelix and Tuvok and I'm inclined to say she did the right thing. They never consented to create a third being and I am not convinced that you can really call them dead if their consciousnesses are still in some sense in existence and there is a way to bring them back to life.
But I definitely need to give this some more thought...
Janeway only had the legal authority to speak for Tuvok. Neelix is a transient alien. She had the moral authority to talk for Neelix, but not the legal authority. Janeway's legal Authority finished at the limit of Voyagers shields, unless she was inside a specific sovereign space belonging to someone else, and then the Prime Directive said that she had to honour that species legal code.
UM?
Okay.
In Alice, 5 years later, we see that Neelix's ship the Biaxial has been in one of Voyagers' cargo bays since Caretaker. Seriously?
Seriously?
Seriously?
"No escape! No escape! I have to give up! Oh woe is me!"
Sabotage Voyager, and then make a run for it in your own ship Tuvix, that isn't even stealing BECAUASE ITS YOUR OWN SHIP!!!!!!
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Baxial
Hell, that rustbucket, was still hanging round in Homestead!
UM?
Okay.
In Alice, 5 years later, we see that Neelix's ship the Biaxial has been in one of Voyagers' cargo bays since Caretaker. Seriously?
Seriously?
Seriously?
"No escape! No escape! I have to give up! Oh woe is me!"
Sabotage Voyager, and then make a run for it in your own ship Tuvix, that isn't even stealing BECAUASE ITS YOUR OWN SHIP!!!!!!
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Baxial
Hell, that rustbucket, was still hanging round in Homestead!
He took it out in The Chute and a few other times. They probably kept it partially disassembled, so that Neelix couldn't just escape suddenly and leave them without a kitchen rat.
I remember listening to a soldier who had a dog, a military dog that was in the line of fire. And this soldier was truthfully admitting that they (can't remember the soldier's gender) would save the life of the dog over the life of another soldier. Obviously because of the huge emotional attachment to the dog. And that was just an animal.
The universe and the rules that Voyager is in is different from the reality of the actual universe and rules that we are in. Janeway found herself in a tragic situation. To bring back Neelix and Tuvock was tragic. To have left Tuvix as Tuvix would have been tragic. I have an emotional attachment to Neelix and Tuvock and if I was in Janeway's shoes, in that universe and faced with the decision of two lives versus 1 possible life, I would have done what she did. And Kes would not have influenced me one way or the other. It would have been hard to have done it but I would have done it.
But in this real universe with the actual rules that exist, if there was a Tuvix situation (which there couldn't be), even though I would want to bring Neelix and Tuvock back I wouldn't because I wouldn't know if it was alright to do so.
The universe and the rules that Voyager is in is different from the reality of the actual universe and rules that we are in. Janeway found herself in a tragic situation. To bring back Neelix and Tuvock was tragic. To have left Tuvix as Tuvix would have been tragic. I have an emotional attachment to Neelix and Tuvock and if I was in Janeway's shoes, in that universe and faced with the decision of two lives versus 1 possible life, I would have done what she did. And Kes would not have influenced me one way or the other. It would have been hard to have done it but I would have done it.
But in this real universe with the actual rules that exist, if there was a Tuvix situation (which there couldn't be), even though I would want to bring Neelix and Tuvock back I wouldn't because I wouldn't know if it was alright to do so.
If Tuvok and Neelix were really inside Tuvix and happy, and Kes had a problem being outside the matrix... Why not throw her in?
Kuvix.
At the very least it would undecuple hendecuple her life expectancy.
Kuvix.
At the very least it would undecuple hendecuple her life expectancy.
Suder may have overwhelmed Tuvok for a touch, but he was suppressed eventually and put in a box like every other bugger Tuvok had ever melded with.
Sex-melds.
Vulcans meld during intercourse.
It makes it more intimate.
So Tuvok's wife was an active voice inside Tuvix as well.
It's a weird measure then that Tuvix who was 5 percent T'Pel, was so forceful at pushing her husband, 35 percent of the gestalt they shared, into having an affair and cheating on herself with a tiny baby girl trying to kill them all.
Oh.
####.
T'Pel was ratcheting up their libido so that Kes would put Tuvix out of his misery, so that she wouldn't end up the recipient of all that hot dangerous love?
I don't see the boys, one who is married and well trained, and the other who has been there and done that, being so desperate as to stalk that Ocampa like she was a bitch in heat.
Sex-melds.
Vulcans meld during intercourse.
It makes it more intimate.
So Tuvok's wife was an active voice inside Tuvix as well.
It's a weird measure then that Tuvix who was 5 percent T'Pel, was so forceful at pushing her husband, 35 percent of the gestalt they shared, into having an affair and cheating on herself with a tiny baby girl trying to kill them all.
Oh.
####.
T'Pel was ratcheting up their libido so that Kes would put Tuvix out of his misery, so that she wouldn't end up the recipient of all that hot dangerous love?
I don't see the boys, one who is married and well trained, and the other who has been there and done that, being so desperate as to stalk that Ocampa like she was a bitch in heat.
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Haven't read the rest of this yet.. but that is funny.. (laughing)
Finished reading that now and it is twisted but bizarrely funny! My icons have disappeared but thumbs up.
There is a reason as to why Lady Justice wears a blindfold as Justice is supposed to be impartial. But what little we've learned about the Judical system of the Federation it very much appears to be based on common law or the system used in places like the UK and US today, so If you didn't know either Tuvok or Neelix and had to rule on should Tuvix be allowed to continue his existance how would you rule?
So when Tuvok gets home, T'Pel will know about his affair with holographic T'Pel.
U.K does not have the death penalty, being British I would hold a referendum
And as far as we know Starfleet/Federation has all but abolished the death penalty but that was in the 23rd century, I'm sure the more enlightened 24th century has abolished it altogether.
I would imagine that she would not have an issue with it. She would have seen the logic behind his decision. The Pon Farr must be resolved.
Definantly one of the better guest actors to appear on Voyager.
Did Janeway end the existence of Tuvix, yes, she clearly did (by injecting a chemical to separate the both ADN, belonging to two members of his crew, Tuvok & Neelix) but she "terminated" Tuvik's life with the consent of her senior staff - minus Tuvok, of course -, who didn't try to stop her by word or by deed, when they had the opportunity to do so (I even wonder if Janeway didn't hope, in a certain way, to be stopped at this time -> if you see the scene on the bridge, they were all head down). As for Kes, the only person onboard to be personally involved* in this case, she even encouraged Janeway to do everything in order to return her Neelix.
So, if you think that Janeway is a murderer and should be punished to have killed Tuvik, alright but, you have to extend the same judgment to Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Kim and Kes, for their silence complicity. It would be only fair, wouldn't it?
-> Janeway acted as a captain, who must sometimes take difficult decisions to keep her crew safe, even if it's against her principles (cf to the violent confrontation between her & Lessing in Equinox). What was the excuse of the senior staff?
You know, Tuvix's fate makes me think to One, in a certain way. Both were an "accident" (I know that it's a terrible word but this was it: if the return aboard happened well, Tuvik would have never existed, right?) but their sacrifice - a voluntary sacrifice for One, but an unless forced sacrifice for Tuvik), allowed Voyager and its crew to be safe in the time.
However, it would have been interesting to see Janeway's struggle/blameworthiness to be revisited later...
So, if you think that Janeway is a murderer and should be punished to have killed Tuvik, alright but, you have to extend the same judgment to Chakotay, Paris, Torres, Kim and Kes, for their silence complicity. It would be only fair, wouldn't it?
-> Janeway acted as a captain, who must sometimes take difficult decisions to keep her crew safe, even if it's against her principles (cf to the violent confrontation between her & Lessing in Equinox). What was the excuse of the senior staff?
You know, Tuvix's fate makes me think to One, in a certain way. Both were an "accident" (I know that it's a terrible word but this was it: if the return aboard happened well, Tuvik would have never existed, right?) but their sacrifice - a voluntary sacrifice for One, but an unless forced sacrifice for Tuvik), allowed Voyager and its crew to be safe in the time.
However, it would have been interesting to see Janeway's struggle/blameworthiness to be revisited later...
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