I could be wrong, but while they didn't end up in the same spot, they did exit the prime universe pretty much back to back.
Generations/Time Travel rules/Kirk
- Thread starter Kirk Prime
- Start date
Spock sees Nero go in before him.
Whenever Trek's done the 'ripple' effect time travel, the change is immediate from the moment the first traveller goes through. Being close, or even in the same wormhole, doesn't seem to matter.
For eg. Seeing Earth being completely Borged for a few moments in FC, simply because the Borg exited the wormhole first. Then changing again when the Ent-D rocks up.
Not the sort of pedantics I'd usually worry about, but it is a time travel discussion.
Whenever Trek's done the 'ripple' effect time travel, the change is immediate from the moment the first traveller goes through. Being close, or even in the same wormhole, doesn't seem to matter.
For eg. Seeing Earth being completely Borged for a few moments in FC, simply because the Borg exited the wormhole first. Then changing again when the Ent-D rocks up.
Not the sort of pedantics I'd usually worry about, but it is a time travel discussion.
Well, it is long established that even under Roddenberry rules of time travel, the time traveler is often not affected. They usually use technobabble like they did in FC to explain it, but that's still not a sign that the prime universe actually still exists. In FC, the Borg did win until Picard and crew stopped them.
I don't think it's so much that the nexus acted differently toward humans than it is that humans reacted differently to the nexus. One common theme about Roddenberry's Star Trek is that there is something very special about humanity. Aliens are often use to show the distinction and Star Trek represents humanity at its finest. People like Kirk and Picard are the finest of that finest. So Picard being so focused on helping others comes as no surprise. Remember, Guinan went in there on her own--she wanted to be there--to live that perfect existence. Picard was forced in there against his will, and to him, the nexus was not a heaven, but a prison preventing him from saving all those lives. He couldn't live there knowing all those people had to die.
I'm not 100 percent sure how clear that is. We don't know the circumstances behind how they encountered the nexus. Given how it affected Guinan and what happened with Soran, I always was under the impression they sought it out and something went wrong.
Don't get me started on that weak plothole. There's even a youtube video on that. But why would Picard conjure up a fake Kirk? And if Picard wanted to be an action hero, he would have conjured up a reality where he was the one beating Soran in a fight, not Kirk. And he would have done all the heroic things while KIRK pushed a few buttons. And yes, I agree 100 percent that Picard was an idiot in Generations. I also feel Picard's incompetence is what got Kirk killed.
As I said, in my theory, "Guinan's echo" wasn't that at all. It was just the Nexus reorienting Picard's fantasy. And a macho action hero doesn't need a woman helping him fight, does he?(BTW, that was just a joke.)
For what it's worth, I don't get offended easily, so a joke like that doesn't need a disclaimer.
A macho action hero doesn't need a more macho action hero fighting his battle either.
I actually agree with you on this--which to me, signifies that the prime universe does not exist anymore, despite that comic book. I always say that the Abrams rules of time travel have only been articulated in off screen interviews. Is an Abrams interview canon to you? It is not to me.
I consider the prime universe's lack of existence to be a rebuttable presumption. In other words, it's gone, until we get proof positive that it isn't. That would require something in an Abrams movie saying it still exists. OR, someone from an Abrams movie must appear on Discovery.
No, it just shows that it wasn't erased by Nero.
Besides, according to your theory, we never really had a Prime timeline. If 'erasure' is a given with timeline changes, then the 'Prime Verse' was gone from the moment McCoy saved Edith Keeler...
Timeline 1: Edith is randomly hit by a car. Erased for:
Timeline 2: McCoy saves her. Erased for:
Timeline 3: Edith dies because of Kirk's presence. <----End of episode 'close enough' timeline.
Timeline 2: McCoy saves her. Erased for:
Timeline 3: Edith dies because of Kirk's presence. <----End of episode 'close enough' timeline.
...then erased about a dozen times afterwards. For eg. Every time the character's time travel to 'fix' something and it's not explicitly established as a loop.
Who knew Picard secretly hated Data so much?
Last edited:
Exactly. Worf being on DS9 alone means that he did not die on Veridian.
Technically, you're right. But what we have seen is that there are instances of people being saved from the timeline changes due to certain circumstances. For example, Kirk's proximity to the Guardian when McCoy changed history insulated him and the landing party from McCoy's changes. That enables Kirk and Spock to stop McCoy from saving Edith and restore the timeline.
One could argue there was a predestination paradox to get Edith in front of that car. But either way, Kirk and Spock prevented McCoy from changing history.
But your point is valid in that maybe there IS a small and in the end insignificant timeline change. But if there is, we don't know about it.
Those are the Roddenberry rules of time travel. And by those rules of time travel, the prime universe no longer exists because Nero messed it all up.
It's true we know that many universes do exist. We know this from Mirror Mirror, and of course Parallels. However, in every instance where a character moved to a different universe, it was crystal clear that they did so. In fact, the whole story was "hey, I'm in another universe and it's different. I would like to go home please." In the Abrams movies, that did not happen, so the presumption must be that they didn't change universe. They just time traveled. And under the Roddenberry rules of time travel, if you change something, you erase what was there before. Would there be a prime universe clone out there? Sure. But that wouldn't be THE prime universe.
Roddenberry never created any rules. It's arhueable Ellison didn't even create any rules.
Which is why it's crystal clear exactly what happened in Tapestry. And in Far Beyond The Stars.
Note: it's not.
Last edited:
The film gives every indication that Guinan, Soran, and the other El-Aurians are refugees traveling on Federation transport ships that happened to get caught in the gravimetric distortions caused by the Nexus. Scotty comments that their life signs are constantly in and out of flux. That indicates that she and Soran were not actively looking for the Nexus (or even aware of what it was), and that this was the point that they both entered the Nexus and were beamed back out of it by Scotty.
Try this on for size: Deep down, Picard wanted to be an action hero like Kirk. And what better way to start down that road than by meeting your secret idol, having him help you in a fight, having him be an action hero one last time, and then having him die so that you can take over his role? I mean, isn't that what the whole movie was basically about? Passing the torch?
Only what is shown on the screen is canon. At least that was CBS's stance on the subject, and to my knowledge they have not made a statement to the contrary.
Or it just means that everything after Generations is a fantasy, including Worf joining DS9.
Last edited:
There are time travel rules in Star Trek, and it's fairly clear and consistent that when you change history, the timeline changes with it. That's the jeopardy. When I say Roddenberry rules--it merely refers to how Star Trek treated time travel, which was fairly clear on that point.
Tapestry was a Q episode, where no rules apply. But you could argue that Q sent Picard back in time, and allowed him to retain his memories even though he altered history and his history was gone. There is no indication that Picard was in another universe.
Far Beyond The Stars was induced by the Prophets. I don't believe it was either time travel nor a trip to another universe.
There really was never any indication that Picard was a huge Kirk fan. Sisko? Absolutely. The man risked the timeline just to get Kirk's autograph. But Picard? While both were very good captains, Picard had a different style, and while I think they could have been very good friends, I don't think Picard had that kind of envy/fandom in him.
Then I'm guessing you'll agree that the prime universe is gone then? At least for now...
While I still say the evidence doesn't support the theory, if you subscribe to that theory, I suppose that is indeed possible. Though it's a hell of an elaborate fantasy to have Picard go through all of that, especially when you factor in that the Abrams universe likely means that Picard is never born.
After all, the odds of Kirk and crew being in place to stop the Probe have gone way down.
That's my whole point: Picard's envy of Kirk was a secret. Picard is the type of person who deals with problems diplomatically. He's a scholar and a gentleman. Kirk is more of an in-your-face action hero. Which is why Picard didn't overtly show his penchant for wanting to be more like Kirk. And how do we know that Sisko's actions aren't just yet another part of Picard's fantasy? "Trials and Tribble-ations" takes place after Generations. It's not like Sisko showed any particular interest in Kirk either during DS9, except for that particular episode.
No, I wouldn't go that far.
As I said before, the Abrams films have nothing to do with this, because the comics depicting Picard et. al are not canon.
What does that mean? That you don't consider nuSpock to be as smart as Spock Prime?
The problem is that you really have to jump through a lot of hoops and make a lot of assumptions for this to really work. Picard having a secret desire to be more like Kirk is a big stretch, especially when that desire would be a catalyst for so many things.
From a creative standpoint, it makes little sense. You're asking Picard to be out of character and create this whole world, containing all the movies and TV shows post-Generations, based on an assumption that has no real onscreen backup.
But I suppose that if you accept everything, then Trials does take place after Generations.
Why not? It's another topic, but the only evidence we have of it is an Abrams/Orci interview. Nothing on screen suggests that the prime universe would be there. And based on all time travel episodes in Star Trek history, everything would suggest that it is gone. However, this is something that can easily be proven incorrect--but it would require canon evidence, which as of now, we just don't have.
Personally, I would love that since I think it could make an excellent movie.
But if we treat your theory as canon, then the Abrams movies would be part of the Picard fantasy, not the "real world." In the Kelvin universe, the odds of Picard being born are slim, and given the Probe, he would likely have died young if he was born at all. Also, if Picard were the true action hero, then why wouldn't HE be the one chasing Nero? Or at least following Nero like he did the Borg in FC?
In theory, Spock should be as smart as Spock Prime, but it wasn't just brains that saved Earth. It was the fact that Kirk and crew were heading to Earth when all of this was going on.
That only happened because TWOK and TSFS happened as they did, and given the changes in the timeline, notably the absence of a Vulcan to go to, there is zero chance that Kirk and crew will be in the same spot they were when the Probe was doing its thing. Anything could happen from all of them being dead to being scattered on different ships to being on Earth itself and just as helpless.
So the odds the Probe kills everyone on Earth are actually pretty high unless Spock Prime did something about it.
From a creative standpoint, it makes little sense. You're asking Picard to be out of character and create this whole world, containing all the movies and TV shows post-Generations, based on an assumption that has no real onscreen backup.
But I suppose that if you accept everything, then Trials does take place after Generations.
Why not? It's another topic, but the only evidence we have of it is an Abrams/Orci interview. Nothing on screen suggests that the prime universe would be there. And based on all time travel episodes in Star Trek history, everything would suggest that it is gone. However, this is something that can easily be proven incorrect--but it would require canon evidence, which as of now, we just don't have.
Personally, I would love that since I think it could make an excellent movie.
But if we treat your theory as canon, then the Abrams movies would be part of the Picard fantasy, not the "real world." In the Kelvin universe, the odds of Picard being born are slim, and given the Probe, he would likely have died young if he was born at all. Also, if Picard were the true action hero, then why wouldn't HE be the one chasing Nero? Or at least following Nero like he did the Borg in FC?
In theory, Spock should be as smart as Spock Prime, but it wasn't just brains that saved Earth. It was the fact that Kirk and crew were heading to Earth when all of this was going on.
That only happened because TWOK and TSFS happened as they did, and given the changes in the timeline, notably the absence of a Vulcan to go to, there is zero chance that Kirk and crew will be in the same spot they were when the Probe was doing its thing. Anything could happen from all of them being dead to being scattered on different ships to being on Earth itself and just as helpless.
So the odds the Probe kills everyone on Earth are actually pretty high unless Spock Prime did something about it.
No, it just means that whoever wrote "Relics" could not possibly know what would happen in a film that hadn't even been written yet. Or that Scotty wasn't even supposed to BE in that film...
There are no alternate timelines at play here. (Not with "Relics" and Generations, anyway.) Glitches in continuity, maybe, but nothing more than that. If Generations had gone on with Spock instead of Scotty (as was supposed to happen), then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
From the inside point of view of the Star Trek universe, they don't know they are fictional characters. It is crystal clear that Scotty was in the Jenolen when Kirk was alive. Therefore, we have a continuity violatioin which should be reconciled. Generations did NOT go with Spock. What we have is a loophole.
Yes, whoever wrote Relics (same guy who wrote Generations by the way), may not have known the future, but whoever wrote Generations (same guy who wrote Relics) did know the events of Relics, which gives another canon supported out for Kirk Prime.
Remember what I just said. Scotty wasn't supposed to be IN Generations. All of his lines in the film were originally for Spock, but Leonard Nimoy bailed on them (as did De Kelley, which explains the presence of Chekov in sickbay) - after the film had already been written. So the writer of "Relics" had no idea Scotty would ever appear in a film again.
No argument about Scotty and Generations, so perhaps they should have realized the issue and dealt with it accordingly. One thing they could have done would have been use the edit button.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter. Scotty WAS in Generations, and therefore present on the Enterprise B, so we have an issue that could give Kirk an out.
Yes, I know that you have to jump through hoops. That's why I said at the very beginning of this discussion that this is just for fun and not meant to be taken seriously. I truly do not believe that Picard is still in the Nexus and everything since Generations is just make-believe. But this all started because of Picard's portrayal in the subsequent films and how he was so unlike how he was portrayed in the show. And because this whole universe is fictional, pretty much anything can be explained away, especially where time travel is concerned.
Except that the new Trek series Discovery supposedly takes place in the prime universe in the year 2255, 22 years after Nero's incursion. So by your logic, Discovery shouldn't exist.
I'm not sure why you keep insisting that the Abrams films would be part of Picard's fantasy. As I mentioned before, the ONLY link they have to the prime timeline is Prime Spock and Nero, neither of whom would have had anything to do with Picard still being in the Nexus.
Let's be realistic, shall we? We both know that Earth is going to be just fine regardless of the Probe, V'Ger, or any other threat it faced in the prime timeline. Even if they had to come up with explanations as to why this is so, all they'd have to do is create scenarios that will still solve the problem even though the means to that end are different. In one universe, Khan was defeated, and in another universe he was also defeated. The circumstances were completely different, but the end result was the same.
Last edited:
They did realize the issue. They dealt with it by choosing to ignore it rather than waste screentime trying to explain it away.
...You've seen how lazily Moore and Braga rewrote the opening of GEN, right? Scotty is suddenly spouting theories like Spock, and Chekov is drafting reporters to be nurses just like McCoy would have. Honestly, we're lucky they remembered to change the character names in the script.
They are both really fun fantasy thought experiments.... Picard and the TNG movies still in the Nexus (hah, I almost said Matrix).... or Prime Kirk, still there, waiting to be retrieved, since Picard never had to enter in the first place to retrieve him.... such a very good point about timeline rewriting.
Similar threads
- Locked
