The Star Wars problem

[fireproof78]

I already showed that we do indeed see the good, and the Palpatine thing is set up in TPM ("we will watch your career with great interest"), fast forwarding 10 years isn't bad story telling because then Lucas both tells AND shows Palpatine and Anakin together in AotC and the effects of that conversation that he SHOWED throughout the remainder of the movie(s).

It isn't good storytelling, either. It misses an opportunity to expand upon the drama and tension of the relationship. It doesn't show Anakin shift in to the dark-he's whiny, spoiled and unpleasant in his interactions with Kenobi, and creepy with Padme, with rare exception.

Again, subjective. I do not find Anakin to be heroic, instead to be showboating , arrogant and selfish.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The conference room scene should not have been cut. No way.

 

[Shinzon4u]

It isn't good storytelling, either. It misses an opportunity to expand upon the drama and tension of the relationship. It doesn't show Anakin shift in to the dark-he's whiny, spoiled and unpleasant in his interactions with Kenobi, and creepy with Padme, with rare exception.

Again, subjective. I do not find Anakin to be heroic, instead to be showboating , arrogant and selfish.

Anakin's shift doesn't truly begin until he leaves to find his mother though. We missed nothing.

 

[Shinzon4u]

The conference room scene should not have been cut. No way.

I agree.

 

[fireproof78]

Anakin's shift doesn't truly begin until he leaves to find his mother though. We missed nothing.

I disagree, as he is already belligerent to Obi-Wan, impulsive, hot-headed and selfish. I do not see the "selfless" behavior that he had in TPM, or his willingness to go out of his way to help others, save for how it impacts him.

 

[Shinzon4u]

I disagree, as he is already belligerent to Obi-Wan, impulsive, hot-headed and selfish. I do not see the "selfless" behavior that he had in TPM, or his willingness to go out of his way to help others, save for how it impacts him.

You do not see his selflessness in TPM? You don't see how he goes out of his way to help others?? He offers them shelter, he offers to fix their ship, he offers to race and give the prize money to them to buy their engine even though he is a dirt poor slave, he dreams about saving others from slavery, etc...
You must have had a blindfold on and the mute function activated when you were watching the film.

Alternatively you mean you don't see selfless behavior in him in the beginning of AotC (your wording was vague). In that case I would say that he is shown to be a moody teenager, not an evil person. And keep in mind that he has nightmares about his mother and has not seen her in a decade.

 

[fireproof78]

You do not see his selflessness in TPM? You don't see how he goes out of his way to help others?? He offers them shelter, he offers to fix their ship, he offers to race and give the prize money to them to buy their engine even though he is a dirt poor slave, he dreams about saving others from slavery, etc...
You must have had a blindfold on and the mute function activated when you were watching the film.

Alternatively you mean you don't see selfless behavior in him in the beginning of AotC (your wording was vague). In that case I would say that he is shown to be a moody teenager, not an evil person. And keep in mind that he has nightmares about his mother and has not seen her in a decade.

Your second interpretation is correct, and you're lucky I resisted the sarcastic reaction to your first suggestion. Some zingers in that set up, let me tell you.

I see plenty of selfless behavior in TPM, and would be more interested in less time between the two films so that we can see more of the transition, rather than just infer that Palpatine started tutoring Anakin after TPM but before AOTC, and that the Jedi only noticed that after 13 years and then it made them feel uncomfortable. Yeah, all of that strains my suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point.

Also, what of his dreams of freeing slaves? Where does that go? It is a lot of information in TPM about Anakin and his interests and dreams, and then they become narrowed and selfish, without a hint of him wanting to free people. In fact, he moves almost straight to tyranny when pressed by Padme. So, um, yeah, there's too much of a disconnect for me to enjoy or attach to the character, because, honestly, TPM Anakin and AOTC Anakin feel like two different people.

 

[Shinzon4u]

I see plenty of selfless behavior in TPM, and would be more interested in less time between the two films so that we can see more of the transition, rather than just infer that Palpatine started tutoring Anakin after TPM but before AOTC, and that the Jedi only noticed that after 13 years and then it made them feel uncomfortable. Yeah, all of that strains my suspension of disbelief beyond the breaking point.

How is that in any way not believable? They don't care that he talks to Palp, they only start to care when it seems like Palp is using the war for excessive political gain, then they use Anakin's position to their advantage (or they try to anyway).

Also, what of his dreams of freeing slaves? Where does that go? It is a lot of information in TPM about Anakin and his interests and dreams, and then they become narrowed and selfish, without a hint of him wanting to free people.

That's literally the point.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Are you noping that sentence in isolation (you don't want the board room scene cut out), or are you noping it as a response to that other guy?

As far as the other issue is concerned, not all narratives are equal. There are different stories to tell. Ultimately, SW77 told one story, TFA told another. The same criteria do not apply to both, as to how much detail to fill in. When I said that I would have preferred a little more of the backstory on the Resistance and the First Order to make it into the film, I was judging TFA on its own merits; it wasn't because SW77 had a conference room scene.

---

Now, about caring about Alderaan. Alderaan was established as Ben Kenobi's destination before the heroes got off of Tatooine. The name "Alderaan" was said quite a bit, actually. It was the destination that Leia gave to Vader in the beginning for the counselor ship, it was said in Leia's message, Ben and Luke discussed it as a place for Luke to go instead of going back to his Aunt and Uncle's farm, both before and after the Lars were killed, it's discussed with Chewie and Han as their destination. By name, we were very familiar with Alderaan as the hero's goal well before Leia was brought before Tarkin. Then, during the interrogation, Tarkin threatens Alderaan as it hangs in space right in front of Leia. We see a beautiful green planet and hear ethereal music as Tarkin threatens to destroy the whole planet that Leia describes as peaceful. It's distilled to good versus evil. Then, the colossal machine is activated and the planet is destroyed. We get it. There is no doubt. Tarkin has just committed a holocaust and snuffed out millions of innocent people in just a few seconds. But moreover, we know now that the heroes' mission to bring R2-D2 to Alderaan cannot succeed. So, in terms of caring, there are multiple levels to care about here. Not only is the crime of destruction itself appalling, but the heroes' quest is altered. Alderaan was anything but a random planet that got destroyed.

 

[fireproof78]

How is that in any way not believable? They don't care that he talks to Palp, they only start to care when it seems like Palp is using the war for excessive political gain, then they use Anakin's position to their advantage (or they try to anyway).

So, 13 years of a relationship and it never raises an eyebrow? Obi-Wan doesn't trust any politician, and the Jedi seem to share that view.

That's literally the point.

Yes, that's the point. And it's a point inferred not shown, and the dreams TPM Anakin has are dead and buried by the time of AOTC. That's my point, is that it isn't well presented. I'm not arguing intent-I'm arguing presentation.

YMMV and clearly does. That's ok by me. I still like AOTC.

As far as the other issue is concerned, not all narratives are equal. There are different stories to tell. Ultimately, SW77 told one story, TFA told another. The same criteria do not apply as to how much detail to fill in. When I said that I would have preferred a little more of the backstory of the Resistance and the First Order to make it into the film, I was judging TFA on its own merits; it wasn't because SW77 had a conference room scene.

---

Now, about caring about Alderaan. Alderaan was established as Ben Kenobi's destination before the heroes got off of Tatooine. The name was said quite a bit, actually. It was said in Leia's message, Ben and Luke discussed it as a place for Luke to go instead of going back to his Aunt and Uncle's farm, both before and after the Lars were killed, it's discussed with Chewie and Han as their destination. By name, we were very familiar with Alderaan as the hero's goal well before Leia was brought before Tarkin. Then, during the interrogation, Tarkin threatens Alderaan as it hangs in space right in front of Leia. We see a beautiful green planet and hear ethereal music as Tarkin threatens to destroy the whole planet that Leia describes as peaceful. It's distilled to good versus evil. The the colossal machine is activated and the planet is destroyed. We get it. There is no doubt. Tarkin has just committed a holocaust and snuffed out millions of innocent people in just a few seconds. But moreover, we know now that the heroes' mission to bring R2-D2 to Alderaan cannot succeed. So, in terms of caring, there are multiple levels to care about here. Not only is the crime of destruction itself appalling, but the heroes' quest is altered. Alderaan was anything but a random planet that got destroyed.

Neither was Hosnian Prime. Maybe we could have known more (I haven't argued otherwise) but Hosnian Prime's destruction also shows the evil of the FO.

 

[Shinzon4u]

So, 13 years of a relationship and it never raises an eyebrow? Obi-Wan doesn't trust any politician, and the Jedi seem to share that view.

Anakin was instrumental in saving Palps' planet, and the Jedi aren't going to refuse Anakin being summoned by him. AGAIN, the reason they don't like it later is because Palp starts becoming more obviously corrupt.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's the point. And it's a point inferred not shown, and the dreams TPM Anakin has are dead and buried by the time of AOTC. That's my point, is that it isn't well presented. I'm not arguing intent-I'm arguing presentation.

I've explained multiple times in this thread why the execution is not lacking in the way you claim.

 

[Shinzon4u]

Neither was Hosnian Prime. Maybe we could have known more (I haven't argued otherwise) but Hosnian Prime's destruction also shows the evil of the FO.

Was the name of the planet ever even said in the film before its destruction? Maybe once.

 

[fireproof78]

Anakin was instrumental in saving Palps' planet, and the Jedi aren't going to refuse Anakin being summoned by him. AGAIN, the reason they don't like it later is because Palp starts becoming more obviously corrupt.
I've explained multiple times in this thread why the execution is not lacking in the way you claim.

And I've explained that it's part of a subjective experience. Neither inherently correct or incorrect.

Was the name of the planet ever even said in the film before its destruction? Maybe once.

Fair point. @CorporalCaptain also made a good point regarding Alderaan's impact on the overall narrative. I have already conceded that the politics of TFA could have been a bit better.

 

[Vger23]

Look, we get it. The OP really likes the PT. That's great. I'm glad you enjoyed it where so many others could not.

That said, the PT just isn't as engaging or entertaining in the broadest sense as the OT to the majority of people. And, there's been a lot of discussion about the plots, details, etc...But ultimately, what made the OT most appealing to people was:

1. Character chemistry
2. Great Special Effects
3. An undefinable but undeniable "magic"

Unfortunately, the PT really had none of this.

The characters had virtually no chemistry with each other whatsoever. So, just to prove I'm not a brainwashed "prequel hater"...I'll say that Phantom Menace is my favorite of the prequel films. And...it's because the characters seemed to have far more fun chemistry with each other in this film. I really liked Qui Gon as a character, and thought that he had a great relationship with all the characters. He had a charm and authority that worked well with the others, and helped tie the whole thing together. After his death, the remaining films are just abysmal in terms of fun and believable character relationships...and that's unfortunately what the entire PT banked on: the relationships. If the relationship and chemistry between Anakin and Padme isn't there...and the relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin isn't there...you've got nothing. And I'm afraid that's what they ended up with: nothing.

The special effects were good...but it was far too much. In the worst possible way, the backgrounds became more important than what was happening in the foreground. Many have criticized the battle sequences as as simply being "as much CGI as possible smeared across the screen." I'd tend to agree with that. Watching the latter 2 films simply gives me a headache and makes my eyes hurt. It's not fun or emotional...it's just a giant showcase for CGI technology.

Finally, and probably most difficult to speak to...there just isn't any "magic." Lots of that is probably due to the character / actor chemistry I spoke to before. But, most of the things that were magical and fun and appealing to the "kid" in all of us about the OT are missing here. Again, I'd actually argue that TPM has MORE of these elements than the others.

The perfect example of how I feel about Star Wars is in the recent releases. I thought Force Awakens was wildly entertaining...great character chemistry, fun, magic...very good stuff and much in line with the same things I loved about the OT. Rogue 1 was the opposite: dour, bland, violent with no magic and only one character whose name I can even remember. In this example...FA represents my feelings on the OT and R1 represents my feelings on the PT.

My current ranking of Star Wars films is as follows...with the prequel films sadly not faring well:

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. TFA
4. ROJ
5. TPM
6. ROS
7. R1
8. AOC

 

[Shinzon4u]

Look, we get it. The OP really likes the PT. That's great. I'm glad you enjoyed it where so many others could not.

That said, the PT just isn't as engaging or entertaining in the broadest sense as the OT to the majority of people. And, there's been a lot of discussion about the plots, details, etc...But ultimately, what made the OT most appealing to people was:

1. Character chemistry
2. Great Special Effects
3. An undefinable but undeniable "magic"

Unfortunately, the PT really had none of this.

The characters had virtually no chemistry with each other whatsoever. So, just to prove I'm not a brainwashed "prequel hater"...I'll say that Phantom Menace is my favorite of the prequel films. And...it's because the characters seemed to have far more fun chemistry with each other in this film. I really liked Qui Gon as a character, and thought that he had a great relationship with all the characters. He had a charm and authority that worked well with the others, and helped tie the whole thing together. After his death, the remaining films are just abysmal in terms of fun and believable character relationships...and that's unfortunately what the entire PT banked on: the relationships. If the relationship and chemistry between Anakin and Padme isn't there...and the relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin isn't there...you've got nothing. And I'm afraid that's what they ended up with: nothing.

The special effects were good...but it was far too much. In the worst possible way, the backgrounds became more important than what was happening in the foreground. Many have criticized the battle sequences as as simply being "as much CGI as possible smeared across the screen." I'd tend to agree with that. Watching the latter 2 films simply gives me a headache and makes my eyes hurt. It's not fun or emotional...it's just a giant showcase for CGI technology.

Finally, and probably most difficult to speak to...there just isn't any "magic." Lots of that is probably due to the character / actor chemistry I spoke to before. But, most of the things that were magical and fun and appealing to the "kid" in all of us about the OT are missing here. Again, I'd actually argue that TPM has MORE of these elements than the others.

The perfect example of how I feel about Star Wars is in the recent releases. I thought Force Awakens was wildly entertaining...great character chemistry, fun, magic...very good stuff and much in line with the same things I loved about the OT. Rogue 1 was the opposite: dour, bland, violent with no magic and only one character whose name I can even remember. In this example...FA represents my feelings on the OT and R1 represents my feelings on the PT.

My current ranking of Star Wars films is as follows...with the prequel films sadly not faring well:

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. TFA
4. ROJ
5. TPM
6. ROS
7. R1
8. AOC

Rogue One is objectively more well made than TFA though. It actually tells a new story. TFA is beat for beat ANH 2, right down to a droid with plans on a desert planet being pursued by the evil empire where it is met by our protagonist.

Also character "chemistry" is subjective. As i've said upthread, I find Anakin/Padme and Anakin/Obi-Wan to be well done.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

My (subjective) ranking has changed over time. I used to like ROTS better, but now I think it lacks depth.

SW77
TESB
ROTJ
R1
TFA
TPM
ROTS
AOTC

 

[Vger23]

Rogue One is objectively more well made than TFA though. It actually tells a new story. TFA is beat for beat ANH 2, right down to a droid with plans on a desert planet being pursued by the evil empire where it is met by our protagonist.

Also character "chemistry" is subjective. As i've said upthread, I find Anakin/Padme and Anakin/Obi-Wan to be well done.

R1 was almost impossible to get through because I didn't care about anything or anyone. The movie did nothing to make me care. In my mind, that means it was a poorly made film. So no, it's not objective. I find it to be a bad film- virtually without any redeeming qualities whatsoever other than it is visually spectacular.

So, while the "subjective chemistry" seemed to work for you in the PT...it didn't for me or for many others, and thus the prequels were unenjoyable for me. If the discussion is just going to devolve into "what you like vs. what others like," it's a pretty useless discussion. As I said...I think we get it at this point: you like the PT and feel somewhat compelled to defend that position in the face of tremendous opposition. That's great...but I sense the productiveness of any debate is likely long since past.

As I said, I'm actually very glad you were able to enjoy the films so much. I wanted to like them. I tried. (Hell, I saw TPM 8 times in the theater). But, looking back now with perspective, I can say these were mediocre and flawed films that failed to meet expectations on many fronts...particularly the most important ones.

Peace

 

[Shinzon4u]

My (subjective) ranking has changed over time. I used to like ROTS better, but now I think it lacks depth.

SW77
TESB
ROTJ
R1
TFA
TPM
ROTS
AOTC

Are you saying that you think TFA has more depth than RotS? If so, explain please.

 

[Shinzon4u]

R1 was almost impossible to get through because I didn't care about anything or anyone. The movie did nothing to make me care. In my mind, that means it was a poorly made film. So no, it's not objective. I find it to be a bad film- virtually without any redeeming qualities whatsoever other than it is visually spectacular.

What about Rey is interesting to you that Jyn lacks?

 

[Vger23]

What about Rey is interesting to you that Jyn lacks?

A personality. A back story that I care about. Any kind of unique trait that makes her something more than a stock character from my perspective.

It's not just "Rey vs. Jyn." It's the entire ensembles. The ensemble of R1 is horrifyingly forgettable...like a cast of stock video game characters in a shitty video game that you can't even finish playing. As flawed as TFA is in parts, at least the cast and characters are memorable.

Like I said, I can sense an endless and defensive argument just going on and on and on and on and on and on and on here.

I don't like the PT. I never will. I just don't care for it. No amount of rationalizing or debate will change that. On the flip side, you do like it. That's great!!!! I'm THRILLED! I know my opinions will have absolutely zero impact on your position, based on my reading of this thread. So...to debate any of this is virtually pointless. I just wanted to participate and voice my perspective. I have no desire to argue endlessly and to no conclusion just to engage in an intellectual debate exercise.

Tastes are what they are.