This is my point though. As we've seen in the other six SW films, much more context could very easily have been inserted into TFA.
The Star Wars problem
- Thread starter Shinzon4u
- Start date
As I already said, it would have mostly been extraneous. Ancillary materials is exactly the right place to put such things.
I may be misremembering but isn't extraneous plot details one of the major complaints about the PT?
Midi-chlorians anyone? Taxation of trade routes? Military creation act votes? Chosen One prophecies?
Can we please make up our minds already?!
I may be misremembering but isn't extraneous plot details one of the major complaints about the PT?
Midi-chlorians anyone? Taxation of trade routes? Military creation act votes? Chosen One prophecies?
Can we please make up our minds already?!
?????
Let me re-post my earlier post-
The movie doesn't make us care about Hosnian Prime and it doesn't other to explain the post-empire galactic power shift. In their haste to be the exact opposite of the PT they forgot the movies NEED at least a semblance of context. Even in ANH there is a whole scene dedicated to explaining the political landscape of the galaxy ("the regional governors...").
I have to agree with this.
I read everything about TFA before it came out, so I didn't need the explanation, but not every movie goes reads the outside material. The scene Shinzon refers to from ANH was a perfect set up, some detail without it being overwhelming.
To be fair, the only reason we care about Alderaan is Leia is from there.
I'm not saying that TFA couldn't have used more context, but I feel like there is a call for exposition stacked upon exposition.
*reckless speculation* In my opinion, the political landscape will be further revealed due to the consequences of Hosnian Prime's destruction, and the fate of the New Republic. As much as I like ANH, even Alderaan didn't mean that much in terms of the next two films. *reckless speculation*
As it is, I think TFA works fine on its own, introduces new characters, and organizations, and sets up some great conflicts, both in characterization and political organization. The rest remains to be seen.
We aren't meant to care about Hosnian Prime. We don't even know its name in the film at first. It actually doesn't matter what its called in the film. The only political things that mattered were mentioned in the opening crawl (First Order, Republic, and Resistance) , or in Hux's speech just before he blew the Capital of the New Republic up with along their precious fleet. Everything one NEEDS to know is there in the film. You just have to be paying attention the whole time.
The questions came from people who wanted to know more. Was that Coruscant? The extra materials are for people who want to know more. That's marketing right there. Given them just enough to want to know more so they buy stuff.
The questions came from people who wanted to know more. Was that Coruscant? The extra materials are for people who want to know more. That's marketing right there. Given them just enough to want to know more so they buy stuff.
(ETA: ^partially ninja'd! 
)
Here's the thing: we weren't meant to care about Hosnian Prime anymore than we cared about Alderaan. Their function in both movies was to demonstrate their respective villain's power, ruthlessness and to let the audience know what is in store for the rebellion/resistance as the Death Star orbits Yavin/Starkiller powers up to fire on D'Qar. That's it.
There's an economy to storytelling. If you stopped to explain the context of every little thing then you're going to bog down the narrative and then nobody will care because they're so utterly bored by the ceaseless exposition.
One of the key features of the original movie was how next to nothing was explained. It was all presented as-is and it was left up-to the visuals to fill in most of the blanks. This was very much intentional as Lucas has often spoken about how he wanted a cinema-verite, almost documentary feel, but framed with romantic cinematography. A hybrid of the mythic and the grounded and it informed everything from the framing to the wardrobe, the set design, model work and even the props. Ever noticed how deliberately nondescript everything looks? This is why.
)Here's the thing: we weren't meant to care about Hosnian Prime anymore than we cared about Alderaan. Their function in both movies was to demonstrate their respective villain's power, ruthlessness and to let the audience know what is in store for the rebellion/resistance as the Death Star orbits Yavin/Starkiller powers up to fire on D'Qar. That's it.
There's an economy to storytelling. If you stopped to explain the context of every little thing then you're going to bog down the narrative and then nobody will care because they're so utterly bored by the ceaseless exposition.
One of the key features of the original movie was how next to nothing was explained. It was all presented as-is and it was left up-to the visuals to fill in most of the blanks. This was very much intentional as Lucas has often spoken about how he wanted a cinema-verite, almost documentary feel, but framed with romantic cinematography. A hybrid of the mythic and the grounded and it informed everything from the framing to the wardrobe, the set design, model work and even the props. Ever noticed how deliberately nondescript everything looks? This is why.
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Well put, both of you(ETA: ^partially ninja'd!
Here's the thing: we weren't meant to care about Hosnian Prime anymore than we cared about Alderaan. Their function in both movies was to demonstrate their respective villain's power, ruthlessness and to let the audience know what is in store for the rebellion/resistance as the Death Star orbits Yavin/Starkiller powers up to fire on D'Qar. That's it.
There's an economy to storytelling. If you stopped to explain the context of every little thing then you're going to bog down the narrative and then nobody will care because they're so utterly bored by the ceaseless exposition.
One of the key features of the original movie was how next to nothing was explained. It was all presented as-is and it was left up-to the visuals to fill in most of the blanks. This was very much intentional as Lucas has often spoken about how he wanted a cinema-verite, almost documentary feel, but framed with romantic cinematography. A hybrid of the mythic and the grounded and it informed everything from the framing to the wardrobe, the set design, model work and even the props. Ever noticed how deliberately nondescript everything looks? This is why.
(ETA: ^partially ninja'd!
Here's the thing: we weren't meant to care about Hosnian Prime anymore than we cared about Alderaan. Their function in both movies was to demonstrate their respective villain's power, ruthlessness and to let the audience know what is in store for the rebellion/resistance as the Death Star orbits Yavin/Starkiller powers up to fire on D'Qar. That's it.
There's an economy to storytelling. If you stopped to explain the context of every little thing then you're going to bog down the narrative and then nobody will care because they're so utterly bored by the ceaseless exposition.
One of the key features of the original movie was how next to nothing was explained. It was all presented as-is and it was left up-to the visuals to fill in most of the blanks. This was very much intentional as Lucas has often spoken about how he wanted a cinema-verite, almost documentary feel, but framed with romantic cinematography. A hybrid of the mythic and the grounded and it informed everything from the framing to the wardrobe, the set design, model work and even the props. Ever noticed how deliberately nondescript everything looks? This is why.
Excuse me, but as I have now repeatedly pointed out, ANH includes a whole board room discussion scene about the political state of the galaxy.
The Thrawn Trilogy was able to show us the government side of the New Republic without people crying about boring politics like in the PT, so it can be done and be loved in the post ROTJ universe, as people loved the Thrawn Trilogy.
And in The Force Awakens the Republic does nothing for the story save to get their capital blown up in the story. The only purpose it serves the story is to give Hux his justification, which he presents in his speech. It is unimportant to the story of TFA. It seems like it may become important to the story in TLJ, at which point the story might call for some exposition. But TFA didn't need it, because it wasn't important to the story outside what little we got from the opening crawl and scattered dialog throughout the film.
Had they decided to do the side arc of trying to get more help for the Resistance from the Republic, now that the First Order was on the move, than the Republic and the situation might warrant more attention. But since they tossed that plot point, it because irrelevant. The only things that were needed to be known, was that the Republic existed (opening crawl). It was helping the Resistance (also opening crawl and Hux's speech). It had a Fleet (Hux's speech and the Resistance talk about fighting Starkiller Base). And that the First Order needed to sent it a message by doing a first strike against its capital and vaporizing its fleet, leaving the Resistance the only thing in the First Order's way in the short term (Hux's speech, Starkiller Base and its aftermath). There was nothing that was needed to be known for the story to function that wasn't presented to the audience.
Also we get from the crawl that the First Order came from the ashes of the Empire. All the pieces we need are there. If you want more, it wasn't needed in the story. But it makes it so there are other stories to tell.
Had they decided to do the side arc of trying to get more help for the Resistance from the Republic, now that the First Order was on the move, than the Republic and the situation might warrant more attention. But since they tossed that plot point, it because irrelevant. The only things that were needed to be known, was that the Republic existed (opening crawl). It was helping the Resistance (also opening crawl and Hux's speech). It had a Fleet (Hux's speech and the Resistance talk about fighting Starkiller Base). And that the First Order needed to sent it a message by doing a first strike against its capital and vaporizing its fleet, leaving the Resistance the only thing in the First Order's way in the short term (Hux's speech, Starkiller Base and its aftermath). There was nothing that was needed to be known for the story to function that wasn't presented to the audience.
Also we get from the crawl that the First Order came from the ashes of the Empire. All the pieces we need are there. If you want more, it wasn't needed in the story. But it makes it so there are other stories to tell.
What I am saying is that the film has less substance than the OT or the post ROTJ universe of the novels, making it boring.
The political aspect of SW is fun and TFA was worse off for not making you care about Leia's resistance and how it related to the republic that gets destroyed.
The thing to keep in mind is that these movies aren't just made for us nerds who care about the policital situation in the galaxy, they're also made for the non-fans who couldn't tell a Wookie from Twi'Lek, and those people are going to be bored to death by the exposition we're talking about here.
TFA is also not really a story about the Reistance vs The First Order, that is just a backdrop for the story about Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren. The movie told us everything we needed to know about the stuff they were involved in.
For people like us who want to know the backstory, then we have the books, comics, and games. I think it was actually pretty smart to save the more detailed backstory bits for the tie-ins, that way the people who wanted had a place to get it, but it doesn't drag the movie down with unneeded exposition that would bore the people who don't care about that stuff.
It's also worth keeping in mind that they went into TFA knowing it was going to be a trilogy, so that means they will be able to spread the backstory reveals out a bit more. We do see a flashback in the trailer for The Last Jedi, so it's pretty clear that at least Luke and Ben's backstories will be explored a bit more there.
TFA is also not really a story about the Reistance vs The First Order, that is just a backdrop for the story about Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren. The movie told us everything we needed to know about the stuff they were involved in.
For people like us who want to know the backstory, then we have the books, comics, and games. I think it was actually pretty smart to save the more detailed backstory bits for the tie-ins, that way the people who wanted had a place to get it, but it doesn't drag the movie down with unneeded exposition that would bore the people who don't care about that stuff.
It's also worth keeping in mind that they went into TFA knowing it was going to be a trilogy, so that means they will be able to spread the backstory reveals out a bit more. We do see a flashback in the trailer for The Last Jedi, so it's pretty clear that at least Luke and Ben's backstories will be explored a bit more there.
Because it is not important to this story. The plot is to find Luke Skywalker. It follows Rey and Finn for the most part along with Kylo. The politics is going on around them and none of them care about it at all.
In the OT and PT, the characters have a stake in the politics. Be it Princess Leia and her Rebellion against the Empire, or Queen Amidala of Naboo, and her need to find help in the Senate of the Republic (and later join it to make things better, only to see it fall around her). They have a stake in this and thus we need to know. Finn and Rey have no stake in this, only some of the supporting characters do, and most are not focused on for long. Most of the film is spent far from any of those forces on Jakku or Takodona. What we get are from Hux or (basically) Leia during the film, or the opening crawl. Kylo Ren isn't all that interested in the First Order, just the Dark Side of the Force.
The relationship of Resistance to Republic is stated, twice. The Republic is helping the Resistance against the First Order. The First Order thinks this is a grievous offense and blows up their capital planet for it. The Resistance, now without help, has to make due against a superweapon far larger than the Death Stars with even less fighters than they had at Yavin IV. They do better than at Yavin because they have inside help (Solo's team), and once opened up, Starkiller's weakness is easier to exploit than the first Death Star's.
It will likely be very important in The Last Jedi. That's were the exposition will most likely be about the state of the galaxy. While Rey still won't have a stake in it until later on, Finn will likely have stake in were things are going now that he's found a cause to fight for. Then it will be important to the story.
In the OT and PT, the characters have a stake in the politics. Be it Princess Leia and her Rebellion against the Empire, or Queen Amidala of Naboo, and her need to find help in the Senate of the Republic (and later join it to make things better, only to see it fall around her). They have a stake in this and thus we need to know. Finn and Rey have no stake in this, only some of the supporting characters do, and most are not focused on for long. Most of the film is spent far from any of those forces on Jakku or Takodona. What we get are from Hux or (basically) Leia during the film, or the opening crawl. Kylo Ren isn't all that interested in the First Order, just the Dark Side of the Force.
The relationship of Resistance to Republic is stated, twice. The Republic is helping the Resistance against the First Order. The First Order thinks this is a grievous offense and blows up their capital planet for it. The Resistance, now without help, has to make due against a superweapon far larger than the Death Stars with even less fighters than they had at Yavin IV. They do better than at Yavin because they have inside help (Solo's team), and once opened up, Starkiller's weakness is easier to exploit than the first Death Star's.
It will likely be very important in The Last Jedi. That's were the exposition will most likely be about the state of the galaxy. While Rey still won't have a stake in it until later on, Finn will likely have stake in were things are going now that he's found a cause to fight for. Then it will be important to the story.
But this was the official continuation of RotJ. I think it's irresponsible to the saga to just not show us how the government and galaxy at large is getting along in relation to the prior governments of the films.
As i've said before, The Thrawn Trilogy did it to great success.
The fact that that aspect wasn't important to TFA isn't a point in your favor, it merely shows how wrong the focus of the movie was.
Novels and films are two different animals. I doubt that a film adaption would go in to all the political wranglings like a book did.
And the political situation will continue to be unpacked in the next film. ANH, for all intents and purposes, could stand alone and a new SW film could never be made after it. TFA is the opening act, and doesn't have to have the answers all done.
Finally, as others have pointed out, there was enough information to inform the beginnings of the story for the political set up. Could it have been done better? Sure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.
And the political situation will continue to be unpacked in the next film. ANH, for all intents and purposes, could stand alone and a new SW film could never be made after it. TFA is the opening act, and doesn't have to have the answers all done.
Finally, as others have pointed out, there was enough information to inform the beginnings of the story for the political set up. Could it have been done better? Sure, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.
The Empire is gone. From its ashes comes the First Order. Leia's Resistance, supported by the Republic, is trying to stop the First Order from finding and killing her brother, Luke Skywalker (the Last Jedi) who is missing. That's all covered in the opening crawl.
The focus is on the First Order, because figuring it out it important to the story. It relates to Finn. The Resistance is slightly less important because it relates mostly to Poe, who is MIA for most of the film. When he comes back into the picture, the Resistance gets its highlights. By then the Republic's capital and fleet have been blown up, and all the exposition on them needed for the plot has been taken care of by Hux's speech.
The Republic is a non-entity for the rest of the movie because it can't do anything in the short term. It is mentioned that because the fleet is gone, the Resistance is all that stand against the First Order at that moment. And they don't have a lot of time seeing that they know Starkiller Base is going to target them now since they know the Millennium Falcon can be tracked (they can probably track it to Luke now as well).
This makes the Republic and knowing anymore about it than we would have from the PT, unimportant. What little is presented make it seem like after the Empire fell, the Republic was restored. That was the goal of the Rebellion. So most of the information on the Republic was presented in the PT and what little we see of hear about it supports that the Republic is essentially the same Republic we are introduced to in TPM, pre-Chancellor Palpatine.
Rey's story doesn't relate to any of the political parties. Her story balances on the Force and personal relationships with people she meets. She grew up in the wrecks of the previous war (as far as we know anyway...she seemed fairly young when left there) The larger world overwhelms her, but First Order, Resistance, Republic....they still mean nothing to her or her story. Only the Force, the Light and the Dark, are starting to mean something. Everything else is her deciding what path to take. Go back to Jakku, run from her powers, or move forwards, and complete the plot of the film....find Luke Skywalker.
This is her story. Until those factions mean something to her, they won't matter much to the story.
For Luke, the Empire gained meaning and the Rebel Alliance gained meaning in ANH. The Empire through them killing him family, and Alliance through Leia.
For Anakin....well, TPM wasn't so much his story, so we'll guess Padme and say that the sides mattered a great deal to her since the invasion was of the world she ruled and the Republic was a do nothing state aside from the sometimes help from the Jedi. For Anakin, it becomes important in later films because of Padme.
The focus is on the First Order, because figuring it out it important to the story. It relates to Finn. The Resistance is slightly less important because it relates mostly to Poe, who is MIA for most of the film. When he comes back into the picture, the Resistance gets its highlights. By then the Republic's capital and fleet have been blown up, and all the exposition on them needed for the plot has been taken care of by Hux's speech.
The Republic is a non-entity for the rest of the movie because it can't do anything in the short term. It is mentioned that because the fleet is gone, the Resistance is all that stand against the First Order at that moment. And they don't have a lot of time seeing that they know Starkiller Base is going to target them now since they know the Millennium Falcon can be tracked (they can probably track it to Luke now as well).
This makes the Republic and knowing anymore about it than we would have from the PT, unimportant. What little is presented make it seem like after the Empire fell, the Republic was restored. That was the goal of the Rebellion. So most of the information on the Republic was presented in the PT and what little we see of hear about it supports that the Republic is essentially the same Republic we are introduced to in TPM, pre-Chancellor Palpatine.
Rey's story doesn't relate to any of the political parties. Her story balances on the Force and personal relationships with people she meets. She grew up in the wrecks of the previous war (as far as we know anyway...she seemed fairly young when left there) The larger world overwhelms her, but First Order, Resistance, Republic....they still mean nothing to her or her story. Only the Force, the Light and the Dark, are starting to mean something. Everything else is her deciding what path to take. Go back to Jakku, run from her powers, or move forwards, and complete the plot of the film....find Luke Skywalker.
This is her story. Until those factions mean something to her, they won't matter much to the story.
For Luke, the Empire gained meaning and the Rebel Alliance gained meaning in ANH. The Empire through them killing him family, and Alliance through Leia.
For Anakin....well, TPM wasn't so much his story, so we'll guess Padme and say that the sides mattered a great deal to her since the invasion was of the world she ruled and the Republic was a do nothing state aside from the sometimes help from the Jedi. For Anakin, it becomes important in later films because of Padme.
It's only unimportant because they made the wrong movie, is what i'm saying. They had a chance to the movie as large scale as the PT but also make it less "boring" than a Lucas film by shaking the camera around and having a cut every 0.5 seconds or whatever movies do now, but they didn't.
They made a tiny movie with tiny (or no) ambitions. In a way it's antithetical to SW as Lucas didn't want Han killed off because Han had already gone through his ordeal and RotJ was supposed to be our heroes' happy ending.
Now Han is dead, Luke's order got massacred and he went into hiding because he has to be the Yoda expy, and Fisher died so Leia has been written out of episode IX.
