Bryan Fuller: Diversity is key

[Awesome Possum]

Indeed. I may not agree with every point, but I do support representation and characters who can explore different points of view and experiences.

I'm really thinking about younger trans people. There isn't really any representation that they can see, although they might if Netflix doesn't have parental controls on it. There is some in a handful of YA novels, but that's about all they have. I think it would be good for them since the suicide rate is so high, mainly because they don't believe they have a future worth living for and that was before an entire American political party dedicated themselves to erasing them from society and punishing them for existing.

Plus there does need to be more positive (not sex workers or dead bodies) trans representation on TV and played by trans actors. I didn't see a single positive role until I was nearly 30 and that probably saved my life.

 

[mos6507]

I've found that Trek fans are disturbingly regressive when it comes to these things. I'm amazed they were okay with Worf's ponytail.

Not to get overly political but the flaw of the sexual revolution is that options opened up for every group OTHER than straight men. Straight men are still just as obsessed with avoiding doing/saying/wearing/liking anything that trips anybody's gaydar as they were in the Mad Men era.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Not to get overly political but the flaw of the sexual revolution is that options opened up for every group OTHER than straight men. Straight men are still just as obsessed with avoiding doing/saying/wearing/liking anything that trips anybody's gaydar as they were in the Mad Men era.

That's just homophobia, grow up and try on a kilt. You'll probably love it. There's a company called Ultilikilt that makes one with enough pockets to hold a 6 pack.

 

[mos6507]

That's just homophobia, grow up and try on a kilt. You'll probably love it. There's a company called Ultilikilt that makes one with enough pockets to hold a 6 pack.

It's simplification to say "that's just homophobia".

Men in large part rule their lives on the basis of two fears:

1) Will other guys mock me if I do it?
2) Will women still want to date me if I do it?

If women really thought it was necessary for social evolution to have more unisex clothing they would have gone out of their way to address #2. As long as there's the least perception that doing so would turn women off, men won't consider it. And if women did address #2 I would expect #1 to ease off, since #1 is in large part informed by assumptions about what will or won't be attractive to women.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It's simplification to say "that's just homophobia".

Men in large part rule their lives on the basis of two fears:

1) Will other guys mock me if I do it?
2) Will women still want to date me if I do it?

If women really thought it was necessary for social evolution to have more unisex clothing they would have gone out of their way to address #2. As long as there's the least perception that doing so would turn women off, men won't consider it. And if women did address #2 I would expect #1 to ease off, since #1 is in large part informed by assumptions about what will or won't be attractive to women.

That's due to homophobia, it's engrained into society and everyone living in it. You're afraid of "looking gay". You can call it whatever you want, but it is simply homophobia. It's something I had to recognize in myself.

 

[Mudd]

Nonsense - if most men had any accurate perception of how to dress to impress women with their taste (and therefore to be attractive in at least that respect) most men would not dress as they do.

 

[mos6507]

if most men had any accurate perception of how to dress to impress women with their taste (and therefore to be attractive in at least that respect) most men would not dress as they do.

Does impressing women today currently include wearing skants? Didn't think so. That's why Jaden Smith's fashion sense is considered a national news item.

 

[KyleRaynous]

Nonsense - if most men had any accurate perception of how to dress to impress women with their taste (and therefore to be attractive in at least that respect) most men would not dress as they do.

As a man, I find the dressing issue as something very simple. I wear clothes that I feel comfortable with, that have muted colors (a matter of taste and to avoid drawing unnecessarily attention), and that meet a reasonable balance of price/quality. Since I don't change my clothes based on stupid fashion standarts, I find the issue of durability as something primordial...

 

[tenmei]

To note, the previous several posts have all discussed men dressing so as to be attractive to women.

Its a little heteronormative.

Not all of us do.

 

[mos6507]

the previous several posts have all discussed men dressing so as to be attractive to women.
Its a little heteronormative.
Not all of us do.

The discussion is limiting the debate to straight men. Of course, you could say that the few glimpses we had of skants in TNG were only gay men (and I don't think that was Gene's intent at all) but how progressive would that have been? It would in effect perpetuate the stereotype that only gay men would be willing to bend the rules on gender-fashion. Straight women are free to wear pants without being perceived as lesbian. The reverse is not true in society today. People can offer their opinions why, but it is what it is.

 

[cultcross]

Indeed, and men-in-skirts would get all kinds of negative criticism if Discovery did it despite it being set in an enlightened future and despite men having worn skirts in many cultures for centuries.
To sum up, a skirt/we-can-call-it-a-kilt-if-it-helps should definitely be part of the uniform options.

 

[Tenacity]

If we don't, the show will be terrible. A show without creeps is not diverse enough.

Humor to the side briefly, yes there should be people among the Starfleet officers who are less than perfect, who have flaws and strange ideas and are vocally out of the main stream. The "evolved Humanity" and "enlighten future" need to be things out of the dark and confused past Star Trek and there can be a rise of a crew of regular joes.

So, yes to one or two "creeps" in the crowd.

 

[Sakonna]

It really would be great if they cast a trans actor and didn't even comment on it, TOS-style.

It's just too depressing that the closest this franchise has ever come to addressing trans issues is "Profit And Lace." Not that I think real trans people once crossed the minds of anyone involved with that episode while making it. And the fact that that was even possible is more depressing... you make an episode where one of your characters surgically changes their sex, and you're not thinking about anything beyond "man in dress = "

 

[tenmei]

The discussion is limiting the debate to straight men. Of course, you could say that the few glimpses we had of skants in TNG were only gay men (and I don't think that was Gene's intent at all) but how progressive would that have been? It would in effect perpetuate the stereotype that only gay men would be willing to bend the rules on gender-fashion. Straight women are free to wear pants without being perceived as lesbian. The reverse is not true in society today. People can offer their opinions why, but it is what it is.

So you're limiting the debate to straight men though not mentioning this in several pots, and using phrases such as "men, in large part" and "As long as there's the least perception that doing so would turn women off, men won't consider it ..." in the following post. You're playing up to the same trope you've insinuated you don't support - that gay men are prone to gender-fashion blending. But that's not necessarily true - substitute the following with "Will others mock me if I do it" and "Will others still want to date me if I do it" and adapt the subsequent paragraph and then we're on our way.

It's simplification to say "that's just homophobia".

Men in large part rule their lives on the basis of two fears:

1) Will other guys mock me if I do it?
2) Will women still want to date me if I do it?

If women really thought it was necessary for social evolution to have more unisex clothing they would have gone out of their way to address #2. As long as there's the least perception that doing so would turn women off, men won't consider it. And if women did address #2 I would expect #1 to ease off, since #1 is in large part informed by assumptions about what will or won't be attractive to women.

Also - the following post didn't really track -

Does impressing women today currently include wearing skants? Didn't think so. That's why Jaden Smith's fashion sense is considered a national news item.

That if (Straight/Bisexual) men knew how to dress to impress women, that they would not dress as they do - does not track to the fact that Jaden Smith's non-traditional fashion sense is newsworthy.

 

[Jayson1]

Other than not having any gay people I always felt Trek shows were pretty diverse. It's good to see that they want to keep up this tradition. It would be nice to see some diversity in terms of human personalities as well. We should see a nice cross section of the human condition. Some who are liberal and some who are conservative. A kind square type to a partying guy who likes to get high. Some aithest and some religious types. You also can even go to even more example's. Also personally I want someone with a mental illness since that is something I have and yet I don't Trek has ever done that type of character.

Jason

 

[cultcross]

It really would be great if they cast a trans actor and didn't even comment on it, TOS-style.

It's just too depressing that the closest this franchise has ever come to addressing trans issues is "Profit And Lace." Not that I think real trans people once crossed the minds of anyone involved with that episode while making it. And the fact that that was even possible is more depressing... you make an episode where one of your characters surgically changes their sex, and you're not thinking about anything beyond "man in dress = "

Yeah, Profit and Lace played right into the mentality @Awesome Possum is on about. What's the most hilarious, degrading, demeaning, embarrassing thing Quark could be? Not an arms dealer, a misogynist, a slave driver of an employer, a thief, a con artist, or anything else the show regularly portrays him as - a woman.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I suppose the Trek way is generally "nobody cares if people are gay, or black or trans or whatever else in the future" so they don't comment on it. Honestly it's a bit cowardly to approach things that way, I think a human trans character would be interesting. But I feel they are more likely to do something like have an alien who can change it's sex at will or something as a commentary on trans issues. And maybe it'd be done well, who knows?

 

[cultcross]

The biggest missed opportunity so far in my view was Odo. He is literally fluid, but is stoically and unwaveringly a straight male throughout the show. What's with that?

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Good point on Odo. Real life wise they probably thought it was too edgy for the time. In universe Odo seemed like a fairly bad changeling at least most of the time.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Also personally I want someone with a mental illness since that is something I have and yet I don't Trek has ever done that type of character.

I'm assuming you mean long-term sufferer, not criminally insane, and not just magic potion cured in the blink of an eye. That's not been done.